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Old 02-10-2007, 08:20   #16
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Hello sailvi 767 You are right for the Lithium Oxygen batteries however the units we use are Lithium Phosphate unit that have no thermal runaway as discribed.
Just look at the following internet site under safety and you will see the full story.Valence Technology | Technology | Battery Safety | Safety Video.
The energy density is 5 % less but the safety is all that matters to us
Just take a look Greetings
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Old 02-10-2007, 12:12   #17
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Dear Gideon,
It's nice to see another company going for (diesel) electric propulsion. I kept an eye out on your site for any progress and I thoroughly enjoyed your news letters. (how is the diet going) More hopeful news seems welcome after following the lagoon 420 thread in which it seems that lagoon has promised more than it can deliver.
From what I've seen in the news letters it looks like that your using Fisher Panda's as generators. I also rememner seeing 144Vdc which isn't standard for FP, however they do say that they can deliver custom outputs. How does this translate in repairs is it possible that any technician is able to make repairs on these generators? And what about spares? Also a tech question is it a variable speed generator?
In the news letters it seems that regarding the used solar panels you're on the cutting edge. Maybe someone has already pointed this out but in the lagoon thread a company was mentioned whch claims a lot. Might be a hoax, might be interesting Specifications JIL Panels. In the lagoon thread some former solar panel assembler went to them and witnessed the test. He seemed convinced, I thought the test was not quite conclusive. Anyways might help.
Greetings,
Bardo
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Old 06-10-2007, 03:33   #18
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Hallo Maribar The diet is working well, we should register the FastCat 435 wit the weightwatchers organization , the original design weight was 9800 kilo,s empty and the last one launched was 5600 kilo . I expect the next one to be 5000 kilo,s but will keep you posted. We are very happy With Fisher Panda generators and the help they are giving us. With our system we now offer 3 types ranging from 10 Kw up to 17 Kw.
The motors are standard Kubota available wordwide and the generators are aslo standard , the only Item speccially produced for us is the rectifier and that part is almost failproof.
I have looked into the JIll panels from carlsbad but it is a hoax, It is not posible to get 3 Kw out of one squire meter becasue the maximum the sun supplies is 1240 watt per hour on the equador at noon. so is a efficiency of 100 % can be reached that is the maximum output.We use Sanyo panels with 20 % efficiency or an output of 248 watt per squire meter the actual output of these panels is 210 watt at noon (equador) so in the Netherlands we see 160 watt per hour over a period of 5 to 9 hours ( winter Summer )

Greetings
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Old 06-10-2007, 10:59   #19
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Thanks for the reply Gideon,
Figured as much that it was a hoax, too bad.
Those are impressive weight savings! Nearly half the weight of the first.
Thanks for clearing the Fisher Panda parts question, still you didn't mention if they were variable speed. FP does have them so I suppose they are.
I was curious about the hull design of the 435, in the pictures from the stern there are large protrusions visible towards the center. These are for the large beds aft. To keep the hulls slender at the waterline at this length obviously something has to be done to fit them. However is the rather large flat shelve not prone to pounding? Also when underway with the leeward hull a bit depressed and some wave action in between the hulls doesn't this create a lot of drag or at least affect the slenderness ratio? This is not to critize but I am curious.
Looking forward to your next news letter, I expect you to be rather busy as you didn't make your self imposed deadline for number 5 (September). Hopefully the trip from Portugal to the Netherlands went OK.

Groeten Bardo.
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Old 08-10-2007, 13:36   #20
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Hallo bardo
The Fisher panda are variable speed they are however set between 2700 and 3100 rpm to get the best fuel economy.
Because of the extreme low weight the boat has no tendency at all to slam, she floats more like a cork instead of diving into waves. as you probably have seen the bridgedeck clearance in the rear part is 45 cm higher than in the front , this is the area where the waves come together and for that reason made higher .The september version of the newsletter was mailed the last days of september and yes the vacation ( great ) had something to do with that. A crossing of the gulf of biscaye 340 NM in 23 hours was the topping on the cake Greetings

Gideon
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Old 09-10-2007, 09:44   #21
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Hallo Gideon,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
I'm not on the mailing list, so I just checked the site (often). After your last post I changed the link of news letter 4 to 5 and then I was able to read it.
23 hours sailing averaging almost 15 knots is very, very impressive. I guess with the retractable drives it would have been even faster. . .
Only last night I saw the attached PDF of the motor, clearly a bit too fast in the reading. Good for you for choosing Creusen. I have worked with them before for autopilot powerpacks, very nice electric motors, durable.
Good luck with the progress and thanks again.

Bardo
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Old 09-10-2007, 13:56   #22
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If you send your mail addres we can send the updates, the october one is almost ready
Coming sunday I am of to durban to start the testing phase of the MOTOGEN 3000 hours of testing on a computer program all different speeds up down reverse etc.
greetings
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Old 09-10-2007, 18:32   #23
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Being "Green" and wishfull thinking

Such a system, at least at "second glance" is not very green. Has anyone investigated the petrochemical and pollution burden created from manufacturing all of the components of the system? The batteries, solar panele, etc. all are petrochemical burdens which may be very much larger than what is a burden over a 10,000 hour operation of a good modern efficient diesel engine.

There is, for example, a huge misunderstanding amongst the populace that fuel cells offer a "green" solution or alternative to petcochemicals and pollution. This so far has proven to be false. The real problem is how to get hydrogen without using petrochemicals and/or to get it without having a net positive burden (negative in termis of a value judgement) on the earth over merely using an efficient petrochemical burning engine.

There have been such analysis performed regarding the overall burden on the earth and, in general, many so-called "green" solutions are politically correct platforms to stand on yet are smoke and mirrors in an engineering sense.

Now I am definitely in favor of a continued effort to achieve a real break-through in avoiding the overall consumption of petrochemicals yet we must be realistic in the total picture in this analysis and not just jump to the immediate conclusion that if the application appears to not use fuel it may in fact use a lot!
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Old 09-10-2007, 19:37   #24
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"The real problem is how to get hydrogen without using petrochemicals "
Rick, there is some terribly underfunded research being done along the lines of using algae and bacteria to "excrete" methane and IIRC even pure hydrogen from photosynthesis during waste water clearing, effecitvely turning water purification and garbage disposal into fuel.

The dirty little secret being, of course, that no one wants to invest billions while gas is so cheap. And--much as my wallet cringes every time I buy it--gasoline really is still so cheap. Apparently we simply need to lay back and supply our own (kids, please leave the room) vaseline until the price of gas reaches about $5 per gallon (pretaxes), at which point some investors will come in, OPEC will drop back to $3.50 to bankrupt them, and when gas comes back to $5/gallon and the investors have all learned to partner with OPEC countries, "all of a sudden" the magic alternatives will find funding and come on line.
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Old 09-10-2007, 22:27   #25
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How is the above mentioned system different from this one ???

ASMO Marine
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Old 09-10-2007, 22:39   #26
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Sailorman-
ASMO appears to be using an electric motor, as Solomon did, rather than using a propulsion pod (azipod) in the water. "Yes, most sailors can use the existing propeller and shaft, when going from diesel solution to a Thoosa system."
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Old 10-10-2007, 00:43   #27
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And the ASMO system is made for small yachts , up to 32 Ft the biggest motor is 6 Kw , it is belt driven so not maintenance free , not retractable , inboard with a drive shaft and the extra resistance a drive shaft offers, extra holes in the boat under water, more heat in the boat ect. A good system but very different.
It does not regenerate power to the batteries.
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Old 10-10-2007, 00:56   #28
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not so green on second thought

Yes you are right Rick such a system on second thought is not so very green but it is a lot greener than having all those diesels running around that also cost energy to build , maintain etc let alone the steel and aluminum hulled boats , ever been in a steel or a aluminum smelter , I have , it takes lots of energy to get steel or aluminum and making it into sheets a lot more and the same works for all these iron or aluminum motors , it all costs energy to make , We can take this a step further , making epoxy , glass , polyester , carbon , vimylester , gellcoat all costs energy to produce , I guess we have to go back to wooden boats in order to prevent this and even producing and making wooden boats is not energy free.I feel that being able to regenerate electricity while sailing is at this stage the cleanest way. If a better way comes along I will look into It . By the way, our office that has 1800 squire feet of solar panels has not used fossil fuel as energy for over 8 years since these panels where installed so they last and work well ( see picture )
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Old 10-10-2007, 03:45   #29
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"
Apparently we simply need to lay back and supply our own (kids, please leave the room) vaseline until the price of gas reaches about $5 per gallon (pretaxes), at which point some investors will come in, OPEC will drop back to $3.50 to bankrupt them, and when gas comes back to $5/gallon and the investors have all learned to partner with OPEC countries, "all of a sudden" the magic alternatives will find funding and come on line.
Hi Hellosailor, for us poor old brits we are now paying in excess of 1.00 ($2.00 US) for 1 litre of Petrol or Diesel at the pumps which at 4.54 litres to a UK gallon this means we are paying over $9.00 to the gallon, we therefore need some efficient alternatives quick otherwise all the fancy gas guzzling smelly and noisy old Gin Palaces that sit in our marinas are never ever likely to leave their berths (they rarely do now which still keeps demand high and prices high), and we will eventually end up having to burn all this waste plastic, which will not be good for the environment at all.
But suddenly a thought has crossed my mind, if we install plastic burning furnaces we coulkd create steam to drive steam driven engines - no fossil fuels used at all, except bearing in mind the initial fossil fuels used.
Only joking about the last bit, but until the costs of fuel in the States rise to our sort of level it will be difficult to get people to change - not easy.
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