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Old 06-07-2013, 06:15   #31
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Re: Replacement Engine

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Originally Posted by oblivionboyj View Post
Oh, I never mentioned buying a used or rebuilt diesel.
I know better.
A couple people have mentioned their problems with gas engines, but I don't really share those concerns.
From the beginning I have only considered 3 options here; just sticking with the outboard and converting the engine bay to another use, rebuilding the original inboard engine, or buying new.
The only option I'm still considering is the first 2, but rebuilding the original engine (at my leisure) is currently in the lead.

I gave my old engine to a friend with similar circumstances. He's getting by with the outboard for now but doesn't see it as a long-term solution.

He plans to rebuild my engine.

I think he's going to find it won't work out. I think my engine was eaten up by electrolysis.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:38   #32
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Re: Replacement Engine

telling folks do not buy used or rebuilt diesel is like saying do not buy an old vw or other used car or truck.... get real..once rebuilt by a DECENT mechanic, any engine is good--just as good as new. where do you think boat engines come from--they are rebuilt and allegedly marinized bus, truck, forklift engines..some even generator engines...lol
rebuild and love it -- for many many many hours......just treat it nice. use it and keep oil inside it and go .....

electrolysis inside engines is why there are zincs for this usage...like the yanmar in my ericson has---engine zincs--what a concept....
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:54   #33
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Re: Replacement Engine

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
telling folks do not buy used or rebuilt diesel is like saying do not buy an old vw or other used car or truck.... get real..once rebuilt by a DECENT mechanic, any engine is good--just as good as new. where do you think boat engines come from--they are rebuilt and allegedly marinized bus, truck, forklift engines..some even generator engines...lol
rebuild and love it -- for many many many hours......just treat it nice. use it and keep oil inside it and go .....

electrolysis inside engines is why there are zincs for this usage...like the yanmar in my ericson has---engine zincs--what a concept....

Yes, Zeehag. I think we ALL (here) know that zincs protect the engine. As I have recently said multiple times, when I bought this boat I did not know to get an engine survey. If I had, I'm sure one of the first thing the (certified marine diesel) mechanic would have said is "Where's the zincs?" there should have been two on that engine.

I had other signs of electrolysis damage as well. After the new engine was put in, I was checking the bronze sea strainer before leaving on a weekend trip. Pieces of bronze broke off in my hand -- pink and even perforated on the inside. The sea strainer was very close to the engine.

And yes, I would encourage anyone I cared about to buy a newer car or truck, not an older one.

But diesel engines are a little different. It's not a pefect analogy, because it's not easy to destroy a diesel engine to the point that it can't be repaired, and yet I had one and friends of mine bought a used diesel engine in the same shape.

Please. Let's not bicker.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:02   #34
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Re: Replacement Engine

who bickers..i state from actual first hand experience. you choose to counter my words with your stuff.

rebuilding a diesel engine is not rocket science and not all diesel engines have INTERNAL zincs.. many yanmars do. they need regular inspection and care.
not all diesel experts know about these internal zincs...

as far as yanmar rebuilding-- not all places have yanmar parts---much of mexico is difficult to locate any yanmar parts... have to send to san diego or other usa places, at much higher pricing.
perkins and westerbeke are easily found, entire, as well as in parts , here in mexico. is easy to rebuild when parts are readily available and a DECENT mechanic is available.. many locales do not have DECENT mechanics. even in usa, is truth.

diesel engines are much simpler than gasoline engines. is a good thing to know how to fix and rebuild them when one resides in a cruising full time lifestyle. i have been motor head since i can remember--is fun to pull apart engines and fix em--like troubleshooting humans--systems are same--breathing, circulation, and pumping. i wish i could still actually DO the rebuilding myself--but i know when someone tries to pull bs on me when repairing, and that is a large help, and i have rebuilt engines in my past.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:23   #35
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Re: Replacement Engine

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Originally Posted by oblivionboyj View Post
You and I are on the same page here, which is why I'm going the DIY route whenever possible.
I'm not looking at the boat as an investment.
I expect it to be a fun expense.
So I plan to do the maintenance needed without going so far as trying to improve resale by any significant margin.

If I can rebuild the Atomic 4 for less than $1000 it will be worth my time and money.
Too far beyond that and I'm probably going to stay with the outboard.

I'm just asking for advice on options here.
Until I asked here I had no idea that rebuilds and engines cost what they do.

Thanks for all the responses, I appreciate it
Yes...DIY is a great experience. I will tell you that every project I've done, like an engine rebuild, a classic car or house restoration, it has cost 1.5 times the estimate. Usually due to the shop quoting parts and outside labor I cannot do on my own and always twice as long as first thought. Again due to outside labor saying something they could not follow through on like rebuilding water pumps or boring cylinders. Just a word to the wise.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:31   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
Yes...DIY is a great experience. I will tell you that every project I've done, like an engine rebuild, a classic car or house restoration, it has cost 1.5 times the estimate. Usually due to the shop quoting parts and outside labor I cannot do on my own and always twice as long as first thought. Again due to outside labor saying something they could not follow through on like rebuilding water pumps or boring cylinders. Just a word to the wise.
Wisdom accepted and internalized.
I am an aircraft inspector on the Sikorsky S61T program right now.
I know all about suppliers not following through and blowing estimates.
I've come to expect it.

As for 1.5 times cost- I have set that $1000 number intentionally higher than my research tells me it's going to take. And that's assuming my time is worth nothing (which it's obviously not).

A gunsmith I know has a sign in his shop that says:
"I do work three ways...
1) fast
2) cheap
3) quality
Please pick two"
I usually opt for numbers 2 and 3
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:55   #37
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Re: Replacement Engine

I understand your options. I would suggest you do a combination of 1 & 2, and leave 3 for later. Use the boat with the outboard. Buy the engine for $150, store it somewhere and read up on the Moyer website and forum.

10 year ahead planning is nice, theoretically, but when it comes to boats, and it sounds like you're thinking of keeping THIS boat for that long, I can only offer this: you most likely, not for sure please understand, but most likely, will find you'll want something bigger IF you really, really like cruising.

But until you spend more time with the boat you now have by doing coastal cruising, you can't get to the future any faster than it comes to you.

Just to give you some perspective on my experiences, we had a Catalina 25 with an outboard engine from 1987 to 1998 when we bought our C34 with a diesel. I coastal cruised that C25 up and down the California coast, Monterey to Drake's Bay and out the ocean as well as all over SF Bay and the Delta. Great boat, but eventually standing headroom and some more amenities became a goal, and we looked for a C34 for over a year before we found the right one.

Good luck.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:21   #38
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Re: Replacement Engine

Just read " The adventures of Atom". The guy circumnavigated with atomic and that was his biggest headache. Later he chucked the beast and converted his lazarete in to a well where he installed 10HP outboard and never looked back. Few years ago when cruising the Eastern Caribbean with my family on our Tayana 42 we had transmission failure, and that didn't bother me much. Strictly sailed from Dominica down to Grenada and have the same fun as having a working motor or even more
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:25   #39
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Re: Replacement Engine

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
who bickers..i state from actual first hand experience. you choose to counter my words with your stuff.

rebuilding a diesel engine is not rocket science and not all diesel engines have INTERNAL zincs.. many yanmars do. they need regular inspection and care.
not all diesel experts know about these internal zincs...

as far as yanmar rebuilding-- not all places have yanmar parts---much of mexico is difficult to locate any yanmar parts... have to send to san diego or other usa places, at much higher pricing.
perkins and westerbeke are easily found, entire, as well as in parts , here in mexico. is easy to rebuild when parts are readily available and a DECENT mechanic is available.. many locales do not have DECENT mechanics. even in usa, is truth.

diesel engines are much simpler than gasoline engines. is a good thing to know how to fix and rebuild them when one resides in a cruising full time lifestyle. i have been motor head since i can remember--is fun to pull apart engines and fix em--like troubleshooting humans--systems are same--breathing, circulation, and pumping. i wish i could still actually DO the rebuilding myself--but i know when someone tries to pull bs on me when repairing, and that is a large help, and i have rebuilt engines in my past.

You're missing what I'm saying. My old engine was abused. The zincs -- outside and for the engine -- were not maintained.

We are saying the same thing. Diesels are simpler, and more durable, and it's harder to damage them severely. It takes a lot for a person to take an old diesel out and put a new one in, and my recommendation is not to buy a used one because it is likely in a lot of trouble.

I don't care what kind he buys. That's his business, but diesels are work horses and don't require a lot of maintenance but some things are cruciial. Zincs when called for are one of those things.

I'm not questioning your knowledge, but there's nothing inaccurate in what I've said. I would never encourage someone to buy a used diesel engine. They cost a lot of money new, so the previous owner had to have very good reason to take that step.

You don't have to agree.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:51   #40
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Re: Replacement Engine

The atomic4 is a 1940 design, I would not bother to rebuild it even at $1,000.
It would be great if you are restoring the boat for a concourse classic boat show (haha do they even have those??), but for practical purposes, I'd suggest you look at adapting a more modern engine, one where parts are easy to get and inexpensive.
A 2-cyl engine has about half the parts than a 4-cyl engine.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:16   #41
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Most boats that still have an Atomic 4 are now so old it's not worth the conversion to diesel unless you plan to keep the boat for another 20 years. Maybe all the old A4 needs is a head job? My Tartan 34 had one... ran perfect never any trouble...no reason to change it.
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Old 06-07-2013, 14:03   #42
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Re: Replacement Engine

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Most boats that still have an Atomic 4 are now so old it's not worth the conversion to diesel unless you plan to keep the boat for another 20 years. Maybe all the old A4 needs is a head job? My Tartan 34 had one... ran perfect never any trouble...no reason to change it.
Head job? On a flathead?

But I agree... while having a diesel is better in most ways, Anemic Fours have propelled thousands of boats millions of miles. Parts are indeed available, they are dirt simple to work on (and anyone who thinks that diesels are simpler to work on than petrol engines has never seen the insides of an injection pump) and in the OP's situation, a home rebuild makes great sense.

Cheers,

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Old 06-07-2013, 14:54   #43
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Re: Replacement Engine

Head job: as in taking a skim off the head for a better gasket seal ( and tiny bit more compression).
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Old 06-07-2013, 15:34   #44
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Re: Replacement Engine

i fixed the abuse my po gave my yanmar by having it overhauled when i bought my ericson,---600 hour overhaul, essentially a new engine. now there are fewer than 150 hours on that newly rebuilt engine , but it is still new. zincs regularly changed out and all.
it does not take much to make sure you will not be left as i have just recently been left---without functioning engine. so i rebuild perkins now....lol...
for this boat, i bought a used engine , abused it for 2500 miles, now i get to rebuild. had i rebuilt the new to me engine when i received it, i would probably be in better shape.

blessing is--my engine is a perkins--used in buses here, forklifts and tractors, so parts are not impossible to find. there are mechanics here also, so it is not a barren wasteland of and for diesels, here in mexico....


atomic four are not too bad an engine to cruise with--dont know anyone who has died of atomic 4-osis....
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Old 07-07-2013, 10:02   #45
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Re: Replacement Engine

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Head job: as in taking a skim off the head for a better gasket seal ( and tiny bit more compression).
Yes, but more to clean things up, reseat the valves, should also be able to see if there's ring or piston issue.

My old A4 was raw water cooled and the only problem we had was that the cover for the water jacket rusted through once. It rusted through as pinhole spraying water everywhere. I drilled it out a bit and put a faucet washer on a sheet metal screw to plug the leak ... hey it got us home.
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