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Old 22-04-2016, 19:18   #166
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

The down sides of lazyjacks ehh.. The boat will selfsteer ok wind forward of the beam. And sometimes with just a mizzen up (eased right out) and the headsail sheeted in amidships she will meander sort of downwind ok.

If motorsailing you can set the mizzen sheeted hard in tight and she will motor to windward with the helm lashed.

I also suggest you read up on sheet to tiller systems of self steering, and get some surgical tubing, or solid bungy cord at a pinch. Foolish sailer has a great pdf with good instructions on how to set it up, as well as good tips for singlehanding

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Old 22-04-2016, 19:48   #167
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

http://sfbaysss.org/main/resources/ has the link.

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Old 22-04-2016, 20:57   #168
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Hi Alan,

I've had a mishap on my trip to Victoria. Rather the return solo trip. My 4000 has seized the motor. why I have no idea. And I'm hoping it's still under warranty.

I've made it to the Town of Flinders in Victoria after hand steering for about four hours. I've contacted Whitworths Marine in Melbourne who have an ST1000 in stock which my daughter will pick me up tomorrow and drive it down to me.

Do I need to purchase a special cable to get my fluxgate compass to work with it? I'll post a picture of the back of the control head in a second. It takes both Seatalk and NMEA 0183. I think I have some small spade fittings on board.
I'm late to the party. I note that you have received some advice on your 'Sailing the Rip' thread too.


I would like to start by noting that I think you need to address 3 or 4 questions:


1. What is the problem with the ST4000+ GP arm?


2. What caused the problem with the ST4000 arm?


3. Given the answer to #2, is an ST1000 or ST2000 appropriate to drive your trim tab?


4. How to wire an ST1000 or ST2000?


5. How to get your ST4000+ GP arm repaired?


Re #5: With luck your ST4000+ GP arm is still under warranty. The GP tells you that some parts of its mechanism are metal (in the non-GP version those parts are a tough plastic). With luck replacement parts are available.


Re #1: if we take a step back in this thread to one of Atoll's posts, you'll note that Atoll rightly had reservations about the ST4000 control head (the integrated thing that does both course computer work and then sends appropriate control signals to the ST4000+ arm. Atoll pointed out that the Raymarine Course Computer 100 and 300 series did much better jobs at calculating the course than the ST4000 control head.


I said the ST4000 control head does a fair job. But there are situations in which the ST4000 control head runs into problems. Those problems are seen as inability to hold a course. And you see that either as the ST4000 control head reporting that it cannot hold the course or as the ST4000 overworking the ST4000+ GP arm. If overworking means the arm is constantly working in and out, with the result that the arm gets quite hot - and constant work and heat can accelerate wear and mechanical failure


The known conditions that lead to such problems include:


a. an inappropriate hull and rudder (i.e. a racing boat with fin keel and spade rudder instead of a directionally-stable hull such as a full keel with a transom-hung rudder)


b. inappropriate settings of the control head (i.e. not calibrating the ST4000, not setting the appropriate rudder trim settings)


c. strong tidal currents (note that The Rip can have currents of ~10 knots)


d. extended beam reaching in a developed sea with about or more than 20-25 knots (broad reaching can be a problem, depending on the hull and the sea conditions; beating, close reaching, and running put less demand on the ST4000 system, or a human helmsman for that matter) .


In tough conditions (i.e. beam reaching and tidal currents), running the engine and prop (to push water across the rudder) can help. Many Raymarine dealers will advise adding a rudder angle transducer.


Given the advice Atoll gave and the fact that RC was using the ST4000 on a trim tab, I'm surprised. If the ST4000 failed driving the tiller (i.e. the rudder), I'd not be surprised. But the forces involved in driving the trim tab should be much less.


Before I proceed to discuss #3 and #4, here's a question or three:


Q1. Did the ST4000 control head report errors (such as reporting it's inability to hold the course)?


Q2. What was the ST4000+ GP arm doing:
(a) a few small movements?
(b) lots of small movements?
(c) lots of big movements, over-correcting repeatedly


Q3. Did the arm get hot to touch?


Q4. Was the stainless steel (the drive ram of the ST4000+ GP arm, getting splashed with salt spray? Do you clean, dry and spray silicone onto the ram?


I'll deal with #3 and #4 soon.






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Old 22-04-2016, 21:33   #169
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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3. Given the answer to #2, is an ST1000 or ST2000 appropriate to drive your trim tab?


4. How to wire an ST1000 or ST2000?
Re 3: Generally speaking, if an ST4000 system can adequately autopilot a boat by driving its rudder, then an ST1000+ or ST2000+ 'should' be adequate to autopilot the same hull by driving a trim tab/Flettner rudder/servo rudder.


I stress the 'should' because it depends on:


a. friction in the trim tab (the mechanical friction in what is usually a pair of plain bearings of the trim tab)


b. the leverage of the trim tab (the ratio of the trim tab surface area to the rest of rudder surface area * the distance between the rudder axis and the trim tab axis)


c. other things more complex than my tiny brain can handle at the moment (including the length of the tiller arm of your trim tab and whether you had the ST4000 ram joining at or aft of the neutral point so you have a little mechanical damping in the system).


I worry about that failure of the ST4000 arm. I reckon RC will sleep better if he knows what was the nature of failure of the ST4000 and what were the likely causes.


Re #4: If RC (or anyone) already has an ST4000 installation, then adding a ST1000+ or ST2000 is a piece of cake.


A. No specialised wiring harness is needed (i.e no specialised SeaTalk proprietary cable). Three lengths of appropriate diameter marine quality multistrand wire are all that is needed.

* cautionary note #1: when we were first discussing the ST4000 with RC, Atoll and I both stumbled on the problems of versions (ST4000+ GP arm, but what exactly was the control head - an ST4000 {and from which year, because there were small differences in the firmware}, an ST4000+, an ST5000, an ST6000 series head, and whether a 100 series or 300 series course computer was involved).


* cautionary note #2 there are sure to be some differences in the ST1000 or ST2000 models from year to year. So always ask the retailer and read the manual. As they say in the trade: I am not a legal professional. All I offer is general advice based on my own experience. You take responsibility for your own ship at all times, not me or anyone else. Test your installation before you go to sea and take responsibility for it.


B. In short:


a. you've got an ST4000+ GP arm installed. If it was installed according to Raymarine recommendations, you will find a socket somewhere in your cockpit. You plug your ST4000+ GP arm into that socket, right?


b. The major part of the work in adding an ST1000+ is installing the socket for it. The good news is that you do NOT have to run cables from the back of your ST4000 control head to the new socket of the ST1000+. All you do is run three wires from the back of the ST4000 socket to the back of the ST1000 socket!


You don't need to cable the fluxgate compass signal to the ST1000. All you need to is cable the SeaTalk signal (from the control head) to the ST1000. And that overrides the ST1000's own control signals.


If you had a plastic bucket (i.e. a GRP boat) you could run the ST1000 or ST2000 as a standalone, by just feeding it 12+VDC and 12-VDC. By adding a third wire that carries the SeaTalk signals from the control head, you override the ST1000's internal course computer. The ST1000 becomes a simple ram, driven by the ST4000 control head (so the +1, -1, +10, -10 buttons on the ST4000 control head can be used to drive the ST1000).


c. The ST in front of ST4000, ST1000, ST2000 stands for SeaTalk. The version of SeaTalk in the ST4000+ GP and the ST4000+ control head is the simplest form of NMEA you can get. Three wires: 12+ VDC (traditionally red insulation); 12- VDC (traditionally black insulation); and the SeaTalk wire (traditionally yellow).


* cautionary note: later versions (the ST6000 and so on) have more wires and dedicated wiring harnesses with special plugs and sockets. I'm writing on the assumption that what you have just needs plain insulated wires.


I'll follow up with some graphics to explain (after I've clipped and perhaps drawn the graphics).
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Old 22-04-2016, 22:36   #170
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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Originally Posted by Alan Mighty View Post
c. The ST in front of ST4000, ST1000, ST2000 stands for SeaTalk. The version of SeaTalk in the ST4000+ GP and the ST4000+ control head is the simplest form of NMEA you can get. Three wires: 12+ VDC (traditionally red insulation); 12- VDC (traditionally black insulation); and the SeaTalk wire (traditionally yellow).


* cautionary note: later versions (the ST6000 and so on) have more wires and dedicated wiring harnesses with special plugs and sockets. I'm writing on the assumption that what you have just needs plain insulated wires.


I'll follow up with some graphics to explain (after I've clipped and perhaps drawn the graphics).
Digging through the manuals to clip graphics, I ran immediately into that 'version' problem.


So my earlier advice (of a few minutes ago) that you do not need a SeaTalk cable and do not need to run cable from the back of your control head to the ST1000 socket is likely wrong. Sorry. My bad.


I think you will probably need to (a) run 12VDC to the ST1000 socket (a black and a red wire); and (b) buy a SeaTalk three wire cable of the appropriate version (usually a red 12+ VDC, a SeaTalk ground/negative of goodness knows what colour insulation; and a yellow SeaTalk + data) from a SeaTalk data out socket at back of your ST4000 control head.


I have both an ST4000 and an ST1000 installation on my own boat. I installed the two more than 10 years ago. So earlier versions. And I would need to crawl into a cockpit locker to check the exact wiring (and it would only be the wiring for that version). So let me over-rule what I wrote in the post just before and follow the textbook because you likely do not have the same version).


My main message is:


1. buy your Autohelm ST1000 from a dinkum Raymarine distributor (or a retired Raymarine technician etc); and


2. discuss what you want to do with that technician or distributor. They'll be able to give you version-specific advice.


Let's have a go with advice and hope I do not make too many errors ...


A. The standard ST4000+ installation involves a plug with 3 pins and a socket. See ST4000 drive parts.jpg.


The socket has a cable with two wires (brown insulation and blue insulation) running from the Drive socket at the rear of your ST4000+ control head. The rear of the socket may have 2 stripes identifying the terminal to which the brown wire is connected and 3 stripes for the terminal to which the blue wire is connected. See ST4000 socket rear.jpg.


B. The standard ST1000+ installation involves a plug with 5 pins and socket. See ST1000 drive.jpg.


(i) the rear of the ST1000 socket has 6 numbered terminals. See ST1000 socket (rear).jpg.


(ii) the canonical installation of the version of ST1000 you likely will be able to buy would have, for a steel boat or any boat in which you want the ST4000 control head to take control of the ST1000, 5 wires in two groups:


a. 12+ VDC (red) and 12- VDC (black)


b. three SeaTalk wires in a cable.


See ST1000 cabling.jpg.


C. Talk to your Raymarine technician (if buying from a chandlery, ask for a phone number to talk to a Raymarine tech; if buying from a Raymarine distributor, ask for a phone number for their tech; otherwise, find a retired Raymarine tech and be prepared to pay them for 30 minutes of advice). Ask if - given the exact version numbers of the ST4000 control head you have and the Autohelm ST1000 you have, if you can simplify the wiring or if you have to follow the canonical ST1000 wiring as shown in ST1000 cabling.jpg.
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Old 22-04-2016, 23:24   #171
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

Well, I don't have a Seatalk cable.

What about the NMEA inputs instead?
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Old 23-04-2016, 00:56   #172
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well, I don't have a Seatalk cable.

What about the NMEA inputs instead?
I'm unclear what you mean. Look at the image of the rear your control head you posted in #161 above or at the image below (ST4000 control head rear.jpg).


One way of getting fluxgate compass data (and +1, -1, +10, -10 etc button signals) to a ST1000 is to connect it to the SeaTalk data bus. That data bus can be accessed by connecting three wires (either a proprietary SeaTalk cable or three wires that you connect to the three terminals in one of the two SeaTalk sockets) at the rear of your ST4000 control head.


The photo you posted in #161 shows that you have rubber covers over each of those two SeaTalk bus sockets. Choose one of them and remove the cover. Then either buy a SeaTalk cable or get three wires and work out what terminal (perhaps some sort of modified spade terminal? If you have a multimeter, put it across the SeaTalk terminals - I suspect SeaTalk+ will be 12 VDC above the SeaTalk ground but SeaTalk data will only be 5VDC above SeaTalk ground; be careful not to mistakenly feed 12VDC into the wrong terminal of the SeaTalk bus) can do the job.


SeaTalk is Raymarine's simplified/proprietary version of NMEA.


What I suspect you're talking about is the NMEA IN socket at the rear of your ST4000 control head. As you say, that's an input: unless I'm mistaken, that socket is there so you could feed NMEA data (from a wind instrument or some other transducer) into your electronic nav system. If so, it's not for getting SeaTalk data out to an Autohelm ST1000.
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:02   #173
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

Well, I've had a good look through the book and without a Seatalk cable, which Whitworths didn't have, (but alas I think I have one at home), I cannot use the ST1000.

I did set it up using the power cable and gave a go at calibrating it. But every time it came up with a callibration error of 29 to 60 degrees. So, I'd say it really does need the flux gate compass on my boat to work.

This means, tomorrow morning I'll be setting off home with the intention of hand steering. Given the winds will be light, I'll put all sails up and lash the tiller with some bungy cord I brought with me and try it. But if I can't balance the sails so that it stays on the general direction, then I'll steer as long as I can and hove to when I really need a rest.

The instalation requirements of the ST1000, suggests to me that I can't use the same head and wiring for both units. I could install an extra power cable (blue and brown) just for the st4000 ram and pull the wires out if the back of the head until needed. But that's the only way I can see I could utilise both units.

To answer the question of what went wrong with the st4000. I was sailing into the waves with about 20 knotts of wind on a close reach. As I found the ram popped out of the pin, I'd say it just had lost its way, tried to extend beyond the capabilities of the trim tab rudder. It had after all sailed me for around 380 miles when it gave up. Though the rest of the time it wasn't in as rough conditions.
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:06   #174
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Well, I don't have a Seatalk cable.
Either you will get a SeaTalk cable packaged with your ST1000 or ST2000. Or whoever sells you the ST1000 can supply an SeaTalk cable.
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:07   #175
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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I'm unclear what you mean. Look at the image of the rear your control head you posted in #161 above or at the image below (ST4000 control head rear.jpg).

One way of getting fluxgate compass data (and +1, -1, +10, -10 etc button signals) to a ST1000 is to connect it to the SeaTalk data bus. That data bus can be accessed by connecting three wires (either a proprietary SeaTalk cable or three wires that you connect to the three terminals in one of the two SeaTalk sockets) at the rear of your ST4000 control head.

The photo you posted in #161 shows that you have rubber covers over each of those two SeaTalk bus sockets. Choose one of them and remove the cover. Then either buy a SeaTalk cable or get three wires and work out what terminal (perhaps some sort of modified spade terminal? If you have a multimeter, put it across the SeaTalk terminals - I suspect SeaTalk+ will be 12 VDC above the SeaTalk ground but SeaTalk data will only be 5VDC above SeaTalk ground; be careful not to mistakenly feed 12VDC into the wrong terminal of the SeaTalk bus) can do the job.

SeaTalk is Raymarine's simplified/proprietary version of NMEA.

What I suspect you're talking about is the NMEA IN socket at the rear of your ST4000 control head. As you say, that's an input: unless I'm mistaken, that socket is there so you could feed NMEA data (from a wind instrument or some other transducer) into your electronic nav system. If so, it's not for getting SeaTalk data out to an Autohelm ST1000.
Yep, very right. I worked out the purpose of the NMEA inputs.

I'm not going to try to jumper the Seatalk ports. I'd be worried I'd blow it up. probably would knowing my luck.
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:11   #176
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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The down sides of lazyjacks ehh.. The boat will selfsteer ok wind forward of the beam. And sometimes with just a mizzen up (eased right out) and the headsail sheeted in amidships she will meander sort of downwind ok.

If motorsailing you can set the mizzen sheeted hard in tight and she will motor to windward with the helm lashed.

I also suggest you read up on sheet to tiller systems of self steering, and get some surgical tubing, or solid bungy cord at a pinch. Foolish sailer has a great pdf with good instructions on how to set it up, as well as good tips for singlehanding

Google Thoughts, Tips, Techniques & Tactics For Singlehanded sailing for the PDf.
Thanks Ben. Much appreciate it. When you say 'sheeted hard in tight', what do you mean exactly? Centralised?
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:16   #177
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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Either you will get a SeaTalk cable packaged with your ST1000 or ST2000. Or whoever sells you the ST1000 can supply an SeaTalk cable.
Raymarine didn't have a Seatalk cable. They would have to order it.

I'm not wanting to hang around, I think I'll take off tomorrow whilst the weather, (wind and waves) are low and just motor sail.

Alan, thanks for all you have written. You have put quite an effort into your responses and I appreciate it. Ive been converting it all into notes to use later.

To get an auto pilot operating on a trim tab successfully I need some way of telling it that there are rudder stops. Or rather trim tab limits. Because that's what is going wrong now.

Ann's probably right, I need to look at getting a windvane.
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:22   #178
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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I did set it up using the power cable and gave a go at calibrating it. But every time it came up with a callibration error of 29 to 60 degrees. So, I'd say it really does need the flux gate compass on my boat to work.
Agreed. With your steel bucket (instead of a plastic bucket) you need the data from your fluxgate compass. That data is on your SeaTalk bus.


Quote:
But if I can't balance the sails so that it stays on the general direction, then I'll steer as long as I can and hove to when I really need a rest.
Ai!? You did balance the sails when using your ST4000 on your trim tab? No autopilot can deal with unbalanced weather helm etc. Always balance the sailplan before engaging the autopilot.


Quote:
The instalation requirements of the ST1000, suggests to me that I can't use the same head and wiring for both units. I could install an extra power cable (blue and brown) just for the st4000 ram and pull the wires out if the back of the head until needed. But that's the only way I can see I could utilise both units.
The blue and brown cables coming out of the DRIVE socket of your control head to the socket of your ST4000+ arm carry signals telling the ram to move. You don't need to disconnect them.


All you need is to feed the SeaTalk data to your ST1000 socket.

Quote:
To answer the question of what went wrong with the st4000. I was sailing into the waves with about 20 knotts of wind on a close reach. As I found the ram popped out of the pin, I'd say it just had lost its way, tried to extend beyond the capabilities of the trim tab rudder. It had after all sailed me for around 380 miles when it gave up. Though the rest of the time it wasn't in as rough conditions.
380 miles is nothing. I've done thousands of miles using my ST4000 direct to the tiller or my ST1000 to the trim tab's tiller.


Any autopilot or human running the helm on a close reach is not under much stress unless there's a considerable tidal current or a developed sea. So 20 knots on a close reach is not an excuse for an ST4000+ GP to fail unless the tidal current was significant (which it may have been in The Rip).


Did the display beep and show an error message?


Was the ram arm hot to touch?


What was your XTE?


Was the ST4000 steering a compass course, steering to a wind angle, or running from one GPS waypoint to another?
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:23   #179
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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Well, I don't have a Seatalk cable.

What about the NMEA inputs instead?
SOL with NMEA. Looks like it only suports wind and gps data not heading? You might be able to jury rig the seatalk connection if you can find one of the tiny spade connections.

Looks like seatalk uses three wires, a positive, ground and data. Maybe it will work with just the data hooked up? If thats the case its only one wire to run.
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Old 23-04-2016, 01:59   #180
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Re: Raymarine St4000 with Trim Tab Problem

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SOL with NMEA. Looks like it only suports wind and gps data not heading? You might be able to jury rig the seatalk connection if you can find one of the tiny spade connections.
I agree that a modified spade connection can be used to jury rig a connection.

The ST4000+ head (as shown in RC's photo in #161 or the graphic above, has a dedicated socket to receive fluxgate heading data. All other data needs be on the SeaTalk bus. And a chart plotter (and appropriate transducers for water speed, wind speed, GPS/GNSS) is needed to calculate and feed the ST4000+ control head with the necessary so it can steer to a wind angle, to a GPS waypoint, etc and try to deal with cross currents.

Quote:
Looks like seatalk uses three wires, a positive, ground and data. Maybe it will work with just the data hooked up? If thats the case its only one wire to run.
My thoughts exactly. But I would want RC to run the idea past a Raymarine tech. I'd be happy to try it myself (and it's probably what I did more than 10 years ago) after putting a multimeter over all the terminals to make sure I was not feeding 12 volts into the data line.

My own installation (with an ST1000 and an ST4000+ GP, run by an ST5000+ control head) is more than 10 years old. I've forgotten the exact details of what wires I ran (and I don't have a chance to crawl into the cockpit locker to photograph the wiring for a fortnight). And the version may be different from that of RC.

So I was reluctant to say what you've just written for fear of misleading RC.

I suspect that the SeaTalk data line is 5 volts above ground. As you can see from the cabling diagram, the Seatalk + (12 VDC) and the SeaTalk - (ground) are connected across to the standard 12VDC wires. So the data is only on that one data line! RC's photo shows nothing else on his SeaTalk bus (i.e. no wind data, so he cannot steer to a wind angle, only to a compass heading; no water speed data and GPS COG data, so in tidal waters his ST4000 control head would not have been able to calculate the current offset). That being the case, I don't see why his otherwise non-existent SeaTalk bus needs yet another feed of 12VDC. I think that as long as RC does not mistakenly feed 12 VDC into the SeaTalk data, he could get away with one wire from a SeaTalk socket to the appropriate terminal on his ST1000 socket.
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