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Old 23-03-2007, 02:06   #16
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Kobelt is a good system. You'll want to talk to Valerie at this addreass.

Valerie <Valerie@kobelt.com>

They'll ask you fill out this form to know what your spec's are on your rudder.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf steering torque.pdf (260.3 KB, 153 views)
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Old 23-03-2007, 09:03   #17
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It is a myth that there is no feedback with the checkvalves installed. Think about it. The force required to move the rudder is a function of the number of turns of the wheel to get lock-to-lock of the rudder, the radius of the wheel, and the force you apply to the radius of the wheel with your arm. It is impossible to turn the rudder without feeling the force required. The more water force against the rudder the more power it takes either by an autopilot or your body to quickly move that rudder, hence you HAVE feedback.

This is something I don't understand, isn't hydraulic assist steering the same as power steering in your car? I have a 47' 20 ton boat with hydraulic steering and I find no feedback at all. The wheel feels the same if I'm sailing or just under power. The only way I can tell if the boat has balanced trim is to look and see where the rudder is from the rudder angle that is displayed on my auto pilot. The other question I have, when I have the auto pilot running the wheel doesn't move which took some time to get used to but if the wheel is moved the kingpin will not be in line with the centerpoint of the rudder. Is the normal?

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Old 23-03-2007, 10:49   #18
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I do not get feed-back with my system. Turning the wheel is so EZ that the rudder would have to sieze up for me to feel any resistance. I have T'd in a pair of hyd. gauges so that I can see the feed-back. And it has turned out great! Now, I actually trim my sails to get the lease amount of feed-back on the gauges and the boat sails itself. All last summer I only used the auto pilot once and that was to see if it was working properly.

The auto pilot is feed in down stream of the check valves and does not affect the wheel. Where my tiller would normally attach I have marks for the centerline and at the lock points.

As well if I want to use the tiller I just open the buypass on the check valve, with a handle I've installed thru the cockpit transom, and the system will bypass allowing the tiller/rudder to move freely.
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Old 23-03-2007, 17:19   #19
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Thanks Delmarrey for the email address and pdf file.

Nice photos of your componants by the way.

Alan!!

I have to sweat this issue. Cause I am in this totally alone. And I don't make tons of money either.

I will be scrimping on "some things". I have plans to build my own mast. (two) of them by the way. Cause I heard those damn things cost $7,000.00 USD a piece. And I don't carry that kind of money around.

I thought about using Aluminum hollow post tubes. I don't know the proper term that they use in the metals industry. But build my own mast using that stuff. And use my blueprints. Measure everything out. And add the wenches and turnbuckles. Pulleys. Cleats. Masthead. Etc Etc.

I can do this. I just don't have a lot of money to throw away. And I like building things myself.

As for the hydraulic steering ram. I know that I will be dumping some serious money there.

As for the engine. Well. I have some ideas there too. I have thought about throwing a diesel from a Dodge pickup. And use cooling water from an internal source. Like on a automobile. Have a radiator with cooling hoses and so forth. And save money on a engine. Without having to add more through holes to my hull. And not use salt water to cool the engine block. If those bigger diesels on thos big tracker semi's can pull trailers. Then this idea should or might work? Plus not to spend more money on a engine that is catered to "marine" applications. Meaning spending more money!!

All I need is a powerful enough diesel engine. To move my hull through the water. I am not there to impress anybody. I am a mechanic. I can fix my own engine.

But if you think that would not work. Please fill me in. Cause I want to know the difference between automotive engines and marine engines?

Well. Enough said on this topic.

Kevin
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Old 23-03-2007, 18:55   #20
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Probably your biggest problem with using an engine straight from a truck would be cooling. You would need the radiator and a decent fan and all the ducting to get airflow over it, and it would all take up a fair bit of space. I don't know about the US, but here in Aus there is a company that takes low milage Jap truck engines and marinises them. They probably don't work quite as well as proper marine diesels, being higher revving, but they are quite well priced. Their website: Welcome to Diecon Engineering Maybe someone in the US does something similar?
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Old 23-03-2007, 19:03   #21
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Well Crusingcat,

I have plans to make air duct vents. Just for that particular issue.

I do not want to marinize anything. I just said that in my last post. I don't need any more (additional) through hull seacocks to mess with.

Besides. I have some faith that a automotive diesel engine, for a pickup truck like a Dodge Ram. Would work rather well for a propulsion engine. As long as I have plenty of cooling water and a decent system with air. To keep it cooled down well.

Like I said. Cost is my biggest issue. And I am looking for alternatives. I am willing to work my tail off. To make this work. Since I am the main person building this 47 foot Bruce Bingham designed Andromeda class sailboat.

And believe me. This boat has plenty of room on board this sucker!! No problems there!!
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Old 24-03-2007, 02:20   #22
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Quote:
I will be scrimping on "some things". I have plans to build my own mast. (two) of them by the way. Cause I heard those damn things cost $7,000.00 USD a piece.
No where near that. The extrusion alone should cost more like US$1500-2K. The extrusion it'self is not that expensive and certainly would be little more than the "Alloy hollow post tubes". It is the rigging that is going to cost. You need someone that can do this part for you as you need special gear to swage the wire cables. The entire rig completed by a pro I imagine would be more like US$7K. It is about NZ$10K for mine.
If you can build your own, I would seriousely suggest you look at building wooden masts. Seriously strong, easy'ish to make, just requires time.
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As for the hydraulic steering ram. I know that I will be dumping some serious money there.
Hell no, the Ram it'self is cheap. It's the entire system that adds up. Do you want to stearing stations for instance? That means two helms. And then the piping which can be the expensive plastic hydraulic line which is easy to run, or cheaper would be copper or SST tube and cheapest would be Galv pipe.
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All I need is a powerful enough diesel engine.
And you probably don't need the power the dodge would give you. You could get away with much smaller.
Quote:
Without having to add more through holes to my hull. And not use salt water to cool the engine block.
You may not have to add a through hull. You maybe able to use what is there. However, adding a through hull is a piece of cake and you should not need to worry about doing it.
Yeah I wouldn't go salt water cooling in the block, but it would certainly be the cheapest and easiest method of all, so shouldn't be cast aside from your thoughts. Plus you then have water cooled exhaust.
A heat exchanger is by far the best solution and is cleaner engine room layout wise and safer engine wise. Plus it means you can wet exhaust which means far easier evacuation of the exhaust. Hot exhaust means lots of issues with heat protection and noise.
Cooling an engine via a radiator in a confined space simply will not work. The CFM of air flow required is not achievable on a boat. Think about the quantity of air flowing through the vehicle radiator when traveling on the road at 100MPH. That is the amount of work that would probably be asked of your boat engine and it has to get rid of the heat produced. Plus the noise of the fan would drive you nuts. A fan can be much louder than the engine.
Using a truck engine can and is done. There is no major issues apart from the way the govoner works in the Injector pump. It won't cause any problem, it just works differently.
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Old 24-03-2007, 14:09   #23
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Alan.

The price of a Mast is $7,000 USD or more for just one mast. And I need two of them on this bucket of mine!! Unless I somehow modify from what the marine designer drew up on the blue prints. And rearrange things around from the original building setup. Move the location of the mast more aft. And use a bigger and taller mast?

About wooden masts?

I have thought about that. Only problem is. I hear that it takes a lot of time. And patience!! And you have to make sure that it is built straight. Not curved or bent?!! And I would need help doing that project?!!

About swaging the cables for riging. "No way!!" Am I going to do that!! I do not have the experience to mess with that stuff. Only to help install it when putting the mast up. Will I deal with it. I'll leave that to a professional to swage the cables. Or someone who knows how?!!

I am still thinking aluminum extrusion poles as my best option. Hollow...yes. Cause I need to run electrical wires and other things down the meast for lights etc.!!

I would have to have a welder. Who knows how to weld in aluminum to weld the spars and other things onto the extrusion. The rest of the stuff can be bolted onto the extrusion.

On the hydraulic ram sterring. Only one station. I do not need to steer from my bed. Only from the cockpit. I want to keep it simple here. I might want to go with copper. Or maybe SST tubing for the hydraulic lines. Or like what you said. The chepest..galvanised piping?!!

So you're saying a Dodge pickup disel engine is too much power, huh? You said go with something smaller. Could you tell me what is made powerful enough to move a 47 foot. Possibly close to 20 ton boat. A smaller engine? What engine would move such a huge hulk? I don't know of any?!!

Now about the water cooling?

I looked over the stupid blueprints. And it looks like the inlet for the toilet is the same inlet for the engine. So I do not have to drill any holes into the hull for that. BUT!! I still do not want salt water for cooling my engine. Especially, if I use a automotive diesel in that boat!!

I do not know anything about heat exchangers. That is where my mechanical skills comes to a close right there.

The engine room. I plan to soundproof that sucker. Cause my cabin or bedroom is in the aft end of the boat. So of course I would not put up with the noise.

So the biggest challenge. Seems to be with air cooling?!! I have thought about having a fan installed in a air vent. A vent the leads to the outside of the boat. Just for the radiator. And then have the radiator fan next to the engine. So that will be two fans for that engine right there. So that way, I would be making sure that there is plenty of air going to the engine.

My other issue is this. What kind of transmission should I use. If I go that route? Should I use a automotive transmission. But remove the P-1-2 gears in it. To make it like a marine transmission? Or should I buy a marine transmission for that Dodge diesel engine.

Like I said. I am trying to save some money here. And that is something I don't have a lot of. So I am seeking options. Which is why I said. I will skimp on some things. And on other things spend and use the "real" stuff for that application.




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Old 24-03-2007, 14:30   #24
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Mate, the hull looks interesting, but! I really feel you are biting off more than you can chew. You are going to need $50K to complete this at least. Work out how many years it is going to take to to earn that over and you should get close to your launch date. Do you want to wait that long?
Trust me, I am one of the best (worst) at trying to do things on the cheap. I have very little income to spend on the boat. But there are some things that you have to say, Nup, I just have to do it right for this and that means it will cost.
K, you know me well enough now to know I ain't bagging you, that my replies are only trying to be helpful as a mate. So I do hope I am being helpful.
Quote:
The price of a Mast is $7,000 USD or more for just one mast
It is going to cost me NZ$3700 for a 14m(50ft) extrusion that comes from the US. It has the sail track moulded as part of the extrusion and the mast is anodized. That means you should be able to locate a mast extrusion for much much less over your way. You need to shop around for that. If you go hollow section Aluminium, it will be difficult to attach winches and fittings to due to it being round. Proper mast section is egg shape and gives you two opposing large flat surfaces for mounting the components. Spreaders (not spars) will be bolted not welded.
Yes a wooden mast takes a lot of time and skill and the timber is not that cheap.
Quote:
So you're saying a Dodge pickup disel engine is too much power
I probably should have asked how much power it can produce before I said that. You will be looking at Hp from 100 through to 150Hp. Does Dodge use GM. (dodge is new to NZ so I know little about it)GM motors are great engines and there is little difference between the road engine and the Marine engine.
Quote:
So that will be two fans for that engine right there.
No we are talking BIG fans, like the vehicle fans which take huge Hp to drive them. That's preciuose Hp you want for the boat, not fans. Two fans would probably use 20Hp. And that is the kind of airflow we are talking. The inlet vent to the room would be huge and then you have to exhaust all that air out another vent. It' is just not praticle and those fans scream.
A proper water cooled heat exchanger uses a similar enclosed system as a air cooled radiator does, but water is used to cool the radiator, not air. So the result is the "radiator" or in this case the heat exchanger can be small, much much smaller than the aircoled radiator. You only have to pump seawater through the thing and the engine has it's own cooling water seperate.
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Old 24-03-2007, 14:38   #25
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Who said that I was going to use a round aluminum extrusion piece?

I never once said in my previous posts. That I was going to use a "round" piece of extrusion. I am going to use a squared or retangular shaped piece of extrusion. More easier I think.

No Alan. I know you are helping me mate. And I am not cussing you out here. As a matter of fact. I know I am biting off a lot more than I can chew. And yes. This project will take a long time.

Worst case scenario. I am looking at the most 10 years maximum?!!

I may just hang this project up. Honestly speaking here?!!

Too much BS involved that I do not want to handle right now!!
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Old 24-03-2007, 16:53   #26
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Costing masts...

When I was costing masts for a 42' boat...

All mast extrusions are proprietry to the mast makers. I don't believe they sell extrusions as a separate item (in Oz anyway).

Rigrite was the only company that I found that sold separate extrusions but my costing did not reveal a big difference to local makers after freight was factored in.

I stopped counting when the cost went over $A40,000. And this was before some of the more expensive fittings - boom brake, vang, reffing gear, roller furling etc. were added.

Please tell me that I am wrong and that the basic laws of commerce, accounting and economics don't apply to mast making.

In practical terms masts for a large boat are structurally complex and the loads may exceed those of available woods and other construction materials.
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Old 24-03-2007, 18:02   #27
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I talked to John Denton at Whalespars, (NSW central coast) and he is quite willing to sell a length of mast section to me at a very reasonable price. I'm sure there would be people in the US willing to as well. But what about looking for a second-hand rig, K?
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Old 24-03-2007, 18:57   #28
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Well, cruisingcat.

That is a good idea. Providing that I can find one mast at a length of 56' 10" at .138 wall thickness . Sparcraft model# S-208.

And the second mast is 42' 3" at .10 wall thickness. Sparcraft model# S-203.

The blueprints call for Sparcraft masts.




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Old 24-03-2007, 23:11   #29
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Aluminum hollow post tubes.
I went by the word "tube". My schooling taught me a tube was round. I just presumed.
You don't have to stick to Sparcraft of course. But it is good to have a section noted so as you can look around. Do a search on the net. I came across several manufacturers that even gave prices on the net of a per ft cost of the extrusion.
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Old 25-03-2007, 03:11   #30
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Originally Posted by CaptainK
Well, cruisingcat.


That is a good idea. Providing that I can find one mast at a length of 56' 10" at .138 wall thickness . Sparcraft model# S-208.

And the second mast is 42' 3" at .10 wall thickness. Sparcraft model# S-203.

The blueprints call for Sparcraft masts.
If your'e on a tight budget, you might have to consider differing from the blueprint in some areas. (It sounds like you already intend to for the motor) A section a size or two heavier might have to do. You can always shorten a mast if it's too long, or make do with one that's a little shorter than the plan. You will find that there are several extrusions from different spar companies that are very similar, if not identical, so you don't have to limit your search to sparcraft. But at this stage you are miles away from needing a rig, as you get closer, and start looking around, you will be surprised what will turn up.
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