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Old 01-07-2015, 11:13   #31
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

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Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
In general, Hurth says neutral or reverse, NEVER forward. The Right Transmission Gear for Sailing - C34
Thanks for the above reference. I find it very curious.

I recently repowered from a Yanmar (with left hand prop) to a new motor with a Hurth HBW100 gearbox. The new motor meant replacing the left hand turning prop for a right hand turning prop.

I'd spent all I wanted to spend by then and so I talked to Hurth about the gearbox and whether it would be ok to set forward up as reverse and vice versa (thus being able to keep the old prop). It struck me that the gearbox doesn't know which way forward is. The Hurth technician checked it out and a few days later confirmed that it didn't matter. The gearbox ratio is the same in forward and backward and the gearbox is equally well built for both directions.

And so I can't help but wonder about the warning above.

Either the technician was wrong, or the warning is wrong, in that it would need to pertain to the setup of the gearbox and rotations of the prop and engine, rather than the directional way of the boat.

You'll all appreciate repowering is expensive and by the time we got to the prop it was already way over budget, and to spend another $1,000+ on a new one was distressing. Particularly when the old left hand prop is in perfect condition. Actually it sits on the wall in the room in which I am writing this post. So yes I decided on getting a new right hand prop.

As an aside I always leave the gearbox in neutral so that I don't risk starting the engine when in gear.
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Old 01-07-2015, 11:28   #32
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

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Originally Posted by grantmc View Post
Thanks for the above reference. I find it very curious.



I recently repowered from a Yanmar (with left hand prop) to a new motor with a Hurth HBW100 gearbox. The new motor meant replacing the left hand turning prop for a right hand turning prop.



I'd spent all I wanted to spend by then and so I talked to Hurth about the gearbox and whether it would be ok to set forward up as reverse and vice versa (thus being able to keep the old prop). It struck me that the gearbox doesn't know which way forward is. The Hurth technician checked it out and a few days later confirmed that it didn't matter. The gearbox ratio is the same in forward and backward and the gearbox is equally well built for both directions.



And so I can't help but wonder about the warning above.



Either the technician was wrong, or the warning is wrong, in that it would need to pertain to the setup of the gearbox and rotations of the prop and engine, rather than the directional way of the boat.



You'll all appreciate repowering is expensive and by the time we got to the prop it was already way over budget, and to spend another $1,000+ on a new one was distressing. Particularly when the old left hand prop is in perfect condition. Actually it sits on the wall in the room in which I am writing this post. So yes I decided on getting a new right hand prop.



As an aside I always leave the gearbox in neutral so that I don't risk starting the engine when in gear.

Zf/hurth denied me a warranty claim for running with a left hand prop., there is also an extra gear and shaft involved when running in the astern position of these boxes also.
As far as putting the box in reverse, the wording should be opposite the direction of travel.....otherwise the clutch pack for the same direction of travel slips.


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Old 01-07-2015, 11:46   #33
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

I left my new Yanmar 3ym3o in reverse whilst sailing. It locked and I could not dis engage and subsequently burned out starter motor trying to start engine. An expensive lesson. Now I always sail withgear box in Neutral and when prop starts I know we are sailing at 5 ķn. Brendan ps this a repeat !
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:27   #34
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Ermm.? I'm not understanding any of this. Do you have hydraulic or slip clutches of some sort.? It can not be good to have the prop turning for hours to no effect. Mine is always in reverse so that the prop is up against engine compression and nothing turns, no rotation equals no unnecessary wear. What am I misunderstanding here.?
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:49   #35
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

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Originally Posted by holmek View Post
Ermm.? I'm not understanding any of this. Do you have hydraulic or slip clutches of some sort.? It can not be good to have the prop turning for hours to no effect. Mine is always in reverse so that the prop is up against engine compression and nothing turns, no rotation equals no unnecessary wear. What am I misunderstanding here.?
I don't pretend to understand the engineering logic behind leaving it in neutral when sailing. I just do it because the people who manufactured my engine say that's what I should do.
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Old 01-07-2015, 14:10   #36
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

I place my in rev. that what my manual said to do.
I guess it depends on your engine/transmission and what the manufacture suggests.
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Old 01-07-2015, 14:12   #37
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

I believe some of the confusion on this topic is due to different transmission designs. Paragon's are related to an AUTOMATIC type transmission, like a Borg Warner Velvet Drive, many other transmissions are geared, more like a MANUAL type transmission. You never tow a car with an automatic transmission in neutral, as it will overheat and self-destruct. As stated elsewhere above, do what the manufacturer suggests.


Our boat has a Paragon, but we have a feathering Kiwi-Prop. Therefore we get no shaft rotation in neutral.
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Old 01-07-2015, 15:32   #38
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

When I was a kid, I would take students up in a Piper J-3 and run through engine out landings with them by actually shutting down the engine. Once, I let the guy get too slow as he searched for site to set down and the prop came to a complete stop. Seemed like our rate of descent moderated a bit; so the next day I went up by myself and conducted as close to a scientific test as I could which yielded a 125 fpm decrease in rate of descent with the prop stopped. You had to plan ahead since without a starter, the airspeed needed to be really increased to get the blades to overcome the mechanical force of the dead engine and start turning again. I thought I would share that story 1. Because I'm home sick in bed; and 2. It is a good story. ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SAILING VERSION OF THIS DILEMMA. The mechanical drag associated with a windmilling boat propeller should be very low. The hydrodynamic drag is certainly measurable, but not much different whether the prop is rotating or not. So for goodness sake just follow your manufacturers advice.


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Old 01-07-2015, 16:08   #39
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Like everyone says - it all depends. Primarily what your manufacturers say.
I have Volvo Penta engines, saildrives with flex-o-fold props. Manual says to put the gears in reverse while sailing. So I do. Catches less lobster floats that was as well.
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Old 01-07-2015, 16:12   #40
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

All the big custom racing sailboats we used to build years ago had a shaft brake installed to keep the shafts from turning, no matter what. Usually had feathering props. It was always fun to watch them put into gear after the race, usually because the shaft brake was still activated.
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Old 01-07-2015, 18:19   #41
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Attached is a more recent and more detailed notice from Yanmar

TECHNICAL BULLETIN
Ref No.: YMTQTBll-017
Date: October 18, 2011
To : Yanmar Marine Regional Head Quarters and All Yanmar marine distributors
Subjects Yanmar Sailboat engine control lever position during sailing under sail with engine stopped

1. Introduction
Yanmar wishes to inform you about the instruction of the control lever position during sailing under sail with engine operation stopped. This instruction is subjected to mechanical type gearboxes and sail drives only.

2. Ooeration instruction
2~1 Mechanical Cone Clutch':
Applicable models: Sail Drive: Models SD 40, SDSO and SD50-4T
Marine gear: Models KM2P, KM35P, KM35A and KM4A

When mechanical cone clutch type gearbox or sail drive is equipped with the following propeller:

a. Fixed propeller:
When sailing under sail with engine operation stopped put control lever into Neutral. The output shaft keeps rotating.

Notice:
When control lever is put in Reverse position, cone slippage will be introduced and void your warranty and there is possibility that the clutch doesn't disengage. This can be a problem for engine re-starting.

There are options to stop free rotation of propeller-shaft if customer doesn't want occur noise from rotating propeller:

1) For sail drive: install folding propeller or Feathering propeller instead of fixed propeller.

2) For marine gear: install the Shaft-Lock device, Yanmar does not supply, on the propeller shaft.

b. Folding propeller: (including GORI Over-drive propeller)
When sailing under sail with engine operation stopped put control lever into Reverse position, this to operate the folding propeller to fold close blade and output-shaft stops from rotating. After this operation put the control lever back into Neutral.

c. Feathering propeller:
When sailing under sail with engine operation stopped put control lever into Reverse position, this to operate the feathering propeller into feathering position and output-shaft stops from rotating. After this operation put the control lever back into Neutral.

2~2 Other Mechanical clutch:
Applicable model: Sail Drive: Model SD20, SD31 (Dog clutch type)
Marine gear: Model KBW10, KBW20, KBW21
(Mechanical single or multi disc clutch)

When mechanical dog clutch or mechanical disc clutch is equipped with the following propeller:

a. Fixed propeller:
When sailing under sail with motor stopped put control lever into Neutral. The output shaft keeps rotating.
Notice:
When control lever is put in Reverse position there is a possibility the clutch does not disengage. This can be a problem for engine re-starting. There are Options to stop free rotation on propeller shaft if customer doesn't want occur noise by rotating:

1) For sail drive: install folding propeller or Feathering propeller instead of fixed propeller.

2) For marine gear: install the Shaft-Lock device, Yanmar does not supply, on the propeller shaft

b. Folding propeller: When sailing under sail with engine stopped put control lever into reverse position, this enables the folding propeller to fold close blade and output-shaft stops from rotating. After this operation put the control lever back into neutral or remain reverse position as you like.

c. Feathering propeller: When sailing under sail with engine stopped put control lever into reverse position, this enables the feathering propeller into feathering position and output-shaft stops from rotating. After this operation put the control lever back into neutral or remain reverse position as you like.
Notice:
Do above mentioned operations with a boat speed <3knts when sailing under sail with engine operation stopped.

Shuji Ando
Manager, Overseas Group
Quality Assurance Department
Marine Operations Division
Yanmar Co. ltd
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Old 01-07-2015, 19:00   #42
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

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Originally Posted by bailsout View Post
The missive from Yanmar does not specify which transmission models, but mandates neutral
WRONG says his Yanmar 2YM15 tranny info requires in gear.
In summary: remove prop while sailing.
That's what I'll do for my 2QM15.
BHAW
Banging head against wall.
I thunk about it a bit more. Don't believe I've ever left it in gear. Old age...
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Old 01-07-2015, 19:45   #43
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
The boat goes faster in neutral but it wears out the trans (Paragon) so I put it in gear.
I beg to differ courteously.

A spinning prop will cause a higher parasitic drag than a locked prop. It takes more energy to spin the prop than is generated in the turbulence around a stalled prop. Similarly, a stalled fan exhaust reduces the power consumed by the fan. Also, a stalled discharge of a water pump will draw less power than the same pump delivering flow. Locking the transmission applies no more (way less) torque or thrust load than the engine in gear. Locked, there is no wear on the cutlass or other moving elements.

If your prop is 2-blade and behind a keel, rotate the blade to be vertical, in-line with the keel and then lock the transmission. Otherwise, get a feathering prop if it bothers you.
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Old 01-07-2015, 19:52   #44
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Golly - who knew! I have always considered the gear lever as a form of handbrake on my boat - only ever in gear when under power or as a brake while preparing to deploy a drogue in heavy following seas...doesn't seem to have done it any harm (Yanmar 12hp single on 31' mono)
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Old 01-07-2015, 20:05   #45
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Very interested in this thread. I have a Perkins 4108 with what I believe is a Velvet drive transmission. I can't stop the shaft from turning. The gear shift does nothing when the engine is not engaged, so the shaft free-turns whether I want it or not.

It doesn't seem to turn until we hit about 3-4 knots, then it spins freely. Nothing I can do to stop it. With our previous boat (an Atomic-4) I used to shift into reverse to stop the turning. Can't do it with this transmission. The noise is somewhat annoying so maybe I'll try your rubber tire idea Hudson Force.
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