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Old 30-06-2015, 12:24   #16
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Volvo saildrives, folding props. In order to get the props to fold, and also as per Volvo's recommendation, put in reverse
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:17   #17
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Looks like Group 9 has the right answer for Yanmar engines! Thanks will leave the gear shifter in neutral.
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:25   #18
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

A free wheeling prop has less drag than a stopped fixed prop. Believe that is according to an MIT study. Probably not enough of a difference except for a racer, however.

Yanmar says to let the prop freewheel. They can say that because they don't have to sail on the boat. Free wheeling prop makes a lot of noise and some vibration on my boat which is a real pain on a long passaage.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:42   #19
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Borg Warner says to let the prop freewheel, i.e. tranny in neutral. Or at least they say it will not harm the tranny if the drive shaft rotates while sailing.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:51   #20
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

We generally sail with our sail drive in neutral. Yes there is a little bit of noise but it's hardly noticeable unless you were asleep in the aft cabins perhaps.

Recommendation from Volvo is either unless you have a folding prop.

Tests by Yachting Monthly indicate a reduction in drag from a free spinning prop that could be as much as 0.5kts difference at 6kts and equivalent to dragging a bucket behind the boat (no I have no idea what dragging a dinghy with outboard on results in). Half a knot doesn't sound much but it if means the difference between making a tidal gate or spending hours waiting to get into harbour then it's worth it.
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Old 30-06-2015, 15:01   #21
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

I posted earlier that the best choice would be to leave the engine/transmission in neutral and use a shaft lock, but to make a fooproof plan to remove the lock before starting the engine.

So now this thread has continued long enough for me to divulge my own stupid low tech solution that I have used. Honestly, I hesitate to share this, but here it comes.

First, I like leaving the transmission in neutral. Second, I don't like the sound of my freewheeling shaft & prop when I'm sailing at speed to get it spinning.

So, here's my confession. I have kept an old bicycle tube with one end secured next to my shaft. If I want to keep my shaft and prop quiet when sailing, I tuck the free end of the bicycle tube around the shaft and as it turns layers of wrap turn on the shaft over my starter wrap. As my bicycle tube stretches at the end, the force of the stretched tube balances the force of free-wheeling.

I've never forgotten to release this before starting my engine, but if I did forget I think the engine torque would rip the tube.

So there, that's what I do and it's with a long list of low tech porcedures that make my cruising life easy!
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Old 01-07-2015, 08:38   #22
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson Force View Post
'sounds wrong!
Well, I'm quite used to being Wrong. Here's what the 3rd edition, 1st rev., June 2013 says in the pdf version I downloaded from the net. Leave in neutral or slippage will occur...

I'll check the Operator's manual that came with the engine to see if it conforms with the above. It is the only other source I've used where what I thunk was right may be incorrect...

Having a boat that may not attain speeds necessary to cause slippage can sometimes be an advantage.
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:10   #23
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

I have a volvo 2002 and I leave it in neutral. In general, I leave the engine controls in position for an emergency start. Since I sail either alone, or with my young kids, I think this is important. If I need to start the engine in a hurry, I don't want to waste time thinking about start position...I know its already set as a rule. Also, I've shown my kids how to start the engine, so long as its already in start position its well within their capability, even at their young age. Yes, the shaft turns. I like to think of it as a reminder that I'm sailing fast.

A shaft brake would be nice as standard equipment on all sailboats.
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:42   #24
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul54 View Post
For my older 1985 Catalina 36 the factory recommended sailing with the transmission in reverse. I am not saying this is right or wrong, but it is what both Catalina and Universal diesel recommended.
Catalina simply got it wrong in the manual and you can also use neutral... Your gear is a Hurth bolted to a Universal diesel..

Most manufactures agree that forward is bad for gear boxes and Hurth/ZF specifically advises against leaving it in forward or "direction of sailing".

Westerbeke / Universal suggests what is below, and it is well known. ZF/Hurth or JS gear boxes used on Westerbeke & Universals can be left in both neutral or reverse but not forward when moving forward.

Some others, like hydraulic gear boxes, can not be left in neutral because some lack lube.

It is always best to consult the manufacturer of your gear box.

Every gear box is different so it is always best to ask the manufacturer.

From Westerbeke / Universal M-25XP Manual Page 35:

UNIVERSAL DIESEL WITH HURTH TRANSMISSION

Model HBW-50 (2:1)
Used on Models 12, M2-12, M-18, M3-20, M4-30, M25 and M-25XP

Model HBW-100 (1.8:1)
Used on Models 30, 35, and 40

Model HBW-150 (1.9:1)
Used on Model 50

Model HBW-150 V-Drive (2.13:1)
Used on All of our V-Drive Models

CAUTION
DO NOT LEAVE GEAR IN FORWARD WHEN SAILING. GEAR MUST BE IN NEUTRAL FOR FREE WHEELING OR SHIFTED INTO REVERSE TO LOCK PROPELLER WHILE SAILING.


Image Courtesy C-34 Association



And for Yanmar/Kanzaki:

Advisory Number: MSA08-003:

DATE February 8, 2008 Dealers and OEMs
TO: All Marine Distributors
SUBJECT: Gear in Neutral While Sailing All MODELS:

All Sailboat Engines

We continue to get questions regarding the correct gear position while sailing with the engine OFF. This advisory is issued as a reminder; Yanmar requires that if sailing with the engine OFF (not running) the transmission shifter must be in the neutral position or internal damage to the gear or sail-drive will result. This damage will not be covered by Yanmar’s Limited Warranty. Please instruct customers and dealers who deliver the sailboat to the customer, of the correct (Neutral) position for the marine gear while sailing.

If the customer desires that the propeller shaft not spin while sailing, either a folding propeller, shaft break, or other suitable device may be used. However, Yanmar accepts no responsibility for the selection, installation, or operation of such devices. Please also refer to Marine service advisory “MSA07-001_Yanmar Sail Drive Propeller Selection” for additional information.

If you have any questions regarding this advisory please contact a Customer Support representative."




The reason for failure mode, as was describe to me, is that in reverse the clutch cones can chatter, quiver or vibrate against one another causing wear which eventually leads to slippage and a gear box re-build. Many already know how difficult a Kanzaki can be to get out of reverse after sailing with it locked.

Here's a quote from the SBO forums:
Quote:
Originally Posted by glengrey
Unfortunately I can attest to the proper Yanmar gear position. In the summer of 2008 my transmission (Kansaki on a 3GM30F engine) started slipping. Engine had 440 hours. always placed gear in reverse when sailing. After considerable discussion with Yamnar they advised they would not consider warranty (was passed the hours for that anyway). Upshot is new transmission. They advised that the cone clutch does "quiver" (my term) even though locked into reverse, producing wear and eventually slippage.
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:54   #25
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Read your transmission tech manual. Not all transmissions are the same. I found that feathering props (Maxi-prop etc) to be well worth the money.
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:00   #26
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Yanmar has been very confusing in their recommendations on this, but after considerable research, here is my understanding. This applies only to Yanmar, no data on other engines.

1) If you have a fixed prop, you should put the engine in neutral when sailing to avoid transmission damage.

2) If you have a folding or feathering prop, it is best to put the transmission in gear while sailing. This allows the prop to go into low-drag mode. We always use reverse, but I am not certain whether it matters, or which gear is better.

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Old 01-07-2015, 10:02   #27
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Yanmar requires that the transmission be in neutral while sailing
Advisory Number: MSA08-003
If you don't want the shaft to spin, then install a shaft brake or a feathering prop.
Does this help?
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:25   #28
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

The missive from Yanmar does not specify which transmission models, but mandates neutral
WRONG says his Yanmar 2YM15 tranny info requires in gear.
In summary: remove prop while sailing.
That's what I'll do for my 2QM15.
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:32   #29
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

Did Yachting Monthly give the drag friction when prop is fixed? How does it compare to the 0.5K in neutral?
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Old 01-07-2015, 11:03   #30
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Re: Do you sail with your transmission in gear?

It depends on the form and method of connecting the rotating power source to the transmission. When the prop can freewheel, and is then engaged, the transmission is being powered backwards. Putting it in reverse immobilises the (normally) output shaft, and saves wear on the gears and fluids.
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