Alternative Propulsion Thread

[TaoJones]

Okay, folks, this is the final warning. If posters to this thread can't stay on topic, the thread will be closed. Here, for the last time, is Hud's reminder:

Hud: "To refresh your memories, here's his original post (emphasis added)..."

I would like to open a new forum thread dedicated to discussions around alternative sailboat propulsion to include newer, and emerging, technologies that offer a glimmer of promise for the cruiser. Possible seed topics in this category will include electric motor retrofit, hydrogen and other fuels, and engine design improvements. I would prefer to exclude the debate of conventional vs saildrive type comments to that forum thread. I want to direct discussion around both bleeding edge and lateral-thinking on the propulsion methods.

If you have nothing to add to the discussion that deals directly with alternative sailboat propulsion, then post nothing. If you have something else that you want to post, but it has nothing to do with alternative sailboat propulsion, don't post it to this thread.

Thank you for your cooperation.

TaoJones

[Therapy]

Well, I have always been intrigued with electric motors that can regenerate. Gideon's idea of a folding drive is great in my eye. See, I have a Gemini and I know first hand that getting the prop out of the water is great, not just to reduce drag but also to not worry about things like crab traps, nets and such.

Battery technology and solar cell technology is going in leaps and bounds and I am interested in seeing that the batteries and solar (and the regeneration through the props) are actually being used somewhere and are actually working.

Lagoon 420 comes to mind in that while it maybe doing some folks just fine, it just does not really compare to the old diesel setup.

My question is, since I have heard about this stuff and seen drawings etc, etc, for some time now is; Is there a boat that is built, in the water, running around somewhere and accumulating data that we can see? You know, pictures or little video clips of the arms going up and down. Seeing what they look like downwind in a blow while being used to both slow the cat and provide amps? You know, real stuff.

Or is it all still just being "tested", "being built", or on paper??

[fastcat435]

Hallo Therapy
Yes we have a boat that is ready for launch and will be launched in a few weeks time.
The first boat with the Green Motion system installed was launched the beginning of this year ( on a monohull) and the system has been operating as expected.
in this boat the system retracts up into the motor bun and closes in its up position.
In case of the FastCat the legs hang under the bridge deck and swing up towards the center of the bridge deck by way of hydraulic actuators.
Unfortunately when developing something completely new everything takes longer than expected.
We have set up a testing protocol and once all testing is done and the system is optimized and with that think of rpm settings different, props and the balance between
propulsion and generation since to be optimal for both we would need a prop that could change in size, we will have to make a choice that gives us a good balance between speed and generation.
If all is ready we will show what is or is not possible with the system.
Gideon

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

Hallo Therapy
Yes we have a boat that is ready for launch and will be launched in a few weeks time.
The first boat with the Green Motion system installed was launched the beginning of this year ( on a monohull) and the system has been operating as expected.
in this boat the system retracts up into the motor bun and closes in its up position.
In case of the FastCat the legs hang under the bridge deck and swing up towards the center of the bridge deck by way of hydraulic actuators.
Unfortunately when developing something completely new everything takes longer than expected.
We have set up a testing protocol and once all testing is done and the system is optimized and with that think of rpm settings different, props and the balance between
propulsion and generation since to be optimal for both we would need a prop that could change in size, we will have to make a choice that gives us a good balance between speed and generation.
If all is ready we will show what is or is not possible with the system.
Gideon

Sounds good.

Videos would be cool.

[fastcat435]

a picture of the Green eMotion painted in glow in the dark paint and ready for launch in a few weeks

[James S]

Cool....are those rudders also retractable?

[fastcat435]

No , both the keels and rudders are non retracting she can however be put on sand.
The draft is 1.12 meters .
I have asked the designer Angelo Lavranos to look into swing boards for this cat and if we go this route she will also have retractable rudders
Gideon

[osirissail]

- - Sorry "Pblais" I couldn't pass this one up ->>"With boats the answer has always been to use less." I think NOT! In real cruising life folks are adding watermakers, DC freezers, Ice makers, enough electronics to make NASA jealous, air conditioning, microwave ovens, etc., etc. Basically converting our "little sailboats" in floating cruise ships with auxilliary sails. In the last few years, it is common in the eastern Caribbean to see the majority of charter boats motoring the whole way from island to island with sails securely tucked away in their on-boom paks. With beam on winds and moderate seas they pound along under diesel power. Makes you shake your head.
- - So anyway the trend is to consume more and more power not less. There will always be "purists" amongst us trying to return to the past of "pure sailing". But in an average anchorage you can count them on one hand (even with a few fingers missing). I am as guilty as anybody for adding all the "extra" creature comforts as our boats get progressively longer and wider. Half a century ago my first home on land had less sq.ft. than my present boat.
- - So where does this take us with "alternative propulsion" systems? Right back into the pages of Popular Science or Popular Mechanics - great ideas but not practical/realistic in present or the near future. There needs to be a "market" of substantial size before investors will back "new technology" that will make it cost-effective.
- - Electric motors - trolling, etc. - are very cost effective since many lakes and bays flat out prohibit gas engines for pollution control. When I had a little 21ft training sailboat in Missouri I used a large trolling motor and big car battery. It was great! Quiet and smooth with no smelly loud outboard belching unburnt gasoline into the waters. But where permitted by politics, (most of the rest of the planet) infernal combustion engines rule because as just about everybody above has said - the technology of electric propulsion for anything less than a cruise liner is not viable.

[fastcat435]

You are right off course , we are continually using more energy
This trend however can be reversed, by carefully searching and looking for the items using less energy ( LED lighting for instance and efficient water makers for instance there are 15 gal water makers using only 9 amps per hour and also units using 36 per hour ) and installing solar panels, wind and water generators we can try to minimize the use of energy and generate as much as possible without the use of fossil fuel or at least minimal use !

[Dedzaboy]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

You are right off course , we are continually using more energy
This trend however can be reversed, by carefully searching and looking for the items using less energy ( LED lighting for instance and efficient water makers for instance there are 15 gal water makers using only 9 amps per hour and also units using 36 per hour ) and installing solar panels, wind and water generators we can try to minimize the use of energy and generate as much as possible without the use of fossil fuel or at least minimal use !

I think the point Osirissail was making is that the technology doesn't yet exist to provide reliable and economical electric propulsion for yachts - I suppose we shall see more in the next few months...

[fastcat435]

economical will be hard using lithium batteries but reliable and feasible is possible
yes we shall see there are many players in this (new) hybrid electrical propulsion field
A new company I noticed last night is index

They use an excellent motor , very efficient both in generation and propulsion
I can hardly believe that all of us are betting on the wrong horse ?

* * *

"In a news conference at the Japan National Press Club on Friday, Toyota Motor President Akio Toyoda said that the company plans to begin mass production of electric vehicles in the US in 2012, followed by US production of fuel cell vehicles in 2015. Toyoda positioned EVs for short-distance travel and fuel cell cars for longer ranges. The 2015 date for fuel cell vehicles reinforced remarks made in June by vice president Masatami Takimoto about commercialization prospects."

* * *

To read the entire article, go to:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009...1004.html#more

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

a picture of the Green eMotion painted in glow in the dark paint and ready for launch in a few weeks

A little bit off topic (Mods! - don't shoot ) but...........awesome colour

Be good to see some pics of her when afloat at night.

[osirissail]

I love the technology of these new propulsion systems and would switch in a minute as soon as they become practical. FastCat post 161 on the Toyota is where I think the most hope seems to be now centered. If they can make cost-effective practical automotive systems then we can adapt that to our boats. But for now one interesting little detail pops up - here is a copy of the electric motor in the FastCat post 161: >>>>>

• 50- 145 kW
• Efficient, power dense, brushless permanent magnet motors
• Compact 10 inch length and 11 inches in diameter
• Light weight (90 - 110 lbs)
• Microprocessor-controlled inverter with sine wave drive
• CAN bus compatible
• Liquid cooled
• High torque: the 50 kW motor has 440 N.m peak torque
• Regenerative capacity
• Full power at 250-420 VDC input
• 94% efficiency <<<< Seriously good looking motor specs until you get down to the bottom where it says 250-420 VDC input - Divide that by 6 or 12 and where are you going to put all those T-104 or 8D batteries - 30 to 40+ batteries just to get the voltage and then how many multiples to get the amps? Maybe the lead keel as a battery is a good idea.
  - - It doesn't seem like anybody has gotten around the storage voltage per individual cell (1.2 to 3.6 depending upon technology) yet so huge numbers of individuals cells are needed to make up the required voltage to run these motors.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by osirissail

I love the technology of these new propulsion systems and would switch in a minute as soon as they become practical. FastCat post 161 on the Toyota is where I think the most hope seems to be now centered. If they can make cost-effective practical automotive systems then we can adapt that to our boats. But for now one interesting little detail pops up - here is a copy of the electric motor in the FastCat post 161: >>>>>

• 50- 145 kW
• Efficient, power dense, brushless permanent magnet motors
• Compact 10 inch length and 11 inches in diameter
• Light weight (90 - 110 lbs)
• Microprocessor-controlled inverter with sine wave drive
• CAN bus compatible
• Liquid cooled
• High torque: the 50 kW motor has 440 N.m peak torque
• Regenerative capacity
• Full power at 250-420 VDC input
• 94% efficiency <<<< Seriously good looking motor specs until you get down to the bottom where it says 250-420 VDC input - Divide that by 6 or 12 and where are you going to put all those T-104 or 8D batteries - 30 to 40+ batteries just to get the voltage and then how many multiples to get the amps? Maybe the lead keel as a battery is a good idea.
  - - It doesn't seem like anybody has gotten around the storage voltage per individual cell (1.2 to 3.6 depending upon technology) yet so huge numbers of individuals cells are needed to make up the required voltage to run these motors.

High voltage energy storage isn't really a problem...the LFP batteries like Genasun, Mastervolt, Valence, RaceCell, etc. are incredibly efficient and lightweight. LFP has become the dominant chemistry for electric vehicles due to the capabilities of fast charging/discharging at very high efficiency (99+ pct!), incredible cycle life (>3000), etc. However, they are quite expensive and the "payback" period from the increased cycle life will take a long time in a typical marine application.

Whether you have a low-voltage or high-voltage system the battery pack is the same size as far as KW's go. In a low-voltage system more cells are in parallel and with high loads the wiring/fuses will be huge and expensive as the amps are higher for a given KW load. In a high-voltage system more of the cells are in series (as in an electric car) and since the amps are lower (for a given KW load) the wiring and hardware are smaller.

In a high-voltage LFP battery system the BMS (battery management system) should have both charge-side and discharge-side contactors controlled by the BMS master, to protect the (expensive) batteries from overcharging or overdischarging. Although LFP batteries can use 80% of their total capacity (vs 50-60% max for lead/gel/agm), you don't want to run them dead or you will kill off the cells. So the BMS system is your insurance policy on an LFP battery investment....;-)

[Québec 1]

The day I buy an electric or what ever car that can pull my 3000lb boat I will start shopping around for a similar system to power my boat.

Presently I have replaced quite a few of my house lights with energy efficient twirly lights and consequently added led lights to my boat.

At present I use a 4 stroke honda 50 and a 1200watt generator because they are affordable, reliable and can manage the loads I require.

It's all in the affordability ,capacity and reliability of the system.
Q1