Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-08-2013, 20:41   #76
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,757
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kordie View Post
I have spoken to helicopters on my handheld VHF.
So have I. But they were SAR helicopters equipped with marine VHF. I don't think regular civilian aircraft are equipped with marine VHF radios. The frequencies and, it seems, modulation, are different.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2013, 20:57   #77
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dedzaboy View Post
OK, so to summarise, there is no requirement in the US for any form of training or licencing to use a VHF radio?
In the distant past, every user of a VHF was required to have a license, but nobody really checked up on it much. In the early 1980's I had a station license for a 3 watt handheld on a 15' center console, which made me one of the 6 or 8 legal people in the whole marina.

These days, the rules have caught up with reality & pleasure boats are "licensed by rule". This means that if you are on a private boat that is on a navigable waterway, you are licensed to use a VHF.

The rules also say that if you have a VHF on board, then you are required to monitor 16 while underway. You are allowed to also monitor any other channel that you want, but you are required to monitor 16. It is suggested that private boats also monitor 9 & use it as a hailing frequency to help keep 16 clear for other traffic & emergencies.

There are only a few channels that are open to non-commercial use. They are 68, 69, 71 & 72. We used to also have 70, but that got taken away from us when DSC got put into use. These are the channels to use for private chats. Other channels are assigned to things like bridge operators, coast guard, etc.

A full list of channel assignments can be found here - U.S. VHF Channels

If you actually take the 20 minutes to read the instructions that come with a VHF, you will probably get enough information on proper protocols to use the radio correctly & not make a fool of yourself in public.
__________________

__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-08-2013, 21:29   #78
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,960
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
So have I. But they were SAR helicopters equipped with marine VHF. I don't think regular civilian aircraft are equipped with marine VHF radios. The frequencies and, it seems, modulation, are different.
Airband is from 118 MHz to 135.9 MHz and is AM. I'm not sure what power commercial aircraft use but I can receive planes at 30k feet out to 200 miles plus. Icom sell some hand held airband transceivers which are 5 watt.

Re the use of the international phonetic alphabet FCC Rule Part 97.119(b)(2) says, for station identification using a phone emission, "Use of a standard phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged".

I find it a little bit annoying when people make phonetic stuff up as they go along...... I get really annoyed when it goes like this...

'This is Albania Finland America......crackle crackle......'
'sorry ...lots of QRN.... please say again'
'This is Azerbaijan ....crackle....Famagusto ...crackle....Austria......'
__________________
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 02:14   #79
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
Airband is from 118 MHz to 135.9 MHz and is AM. I'm not sure what power commercial aircraft use but I can receive planes at 30k feet out to 200 miles plus. Icom sell some hand held airband transceivers which are 5 watt...............
Maximum Tx power is 25 Watts which is what most airline aircraft are fitted with while GA (general aviation) usually are fitted with 7 to 10 Watt transmitters. This is full carrier power (CW). IIRC, the Icom handheld units are 5 Watts PEP which equates roughly to 1 (or maybe 2) Watts of CW.

For anyone interested, channel spacing in the airband is 25KHz in USA and most other places except Europe where it is 8.33 KHz.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 02:31   #80
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,942
Images: 1
Re: VHF Radio Use

Way back when, when I took my ROC, I seem to recall that commercial shipping was required to have a handheld VHF that was set to the aircraft frequency. To ensure that these are readily distinguishable from a regular VHF, the regs require that they have a blue case. I also seem to remeber that these can be purchased at any well-stocked VHF store.

Don't we have a commercial member out there who can confirm/debunk what I've just written?
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 02:44   #81
Registered User
 
El Pinguino's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Punta Arenas ahorra
Boat: 39' Westerly Sealord
Posts: 3,960
Re: VHF Radio Use

Maybe on Danish ships but I was at sea from 1963 to 2006 (UK,Safrican,HK, US , Dutch and Strayan flag) and never saw such a thing.

We did have a card on the bridge showing how a plane would waggle its wings and then fly off in the direction it wanted you to go towards a casualty.
__________________
El Pinguino is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 03:14   #82
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Way back when, when I took my ROC, I seem to recall that commercial shipping was required to have a handheld VHF that was set to the aircraft frequency. To ensure that these are readily distinguishable from a regular VHF, the regs require that they have a blue case. I also seem to remeber that these can be purchased at any well-stocked VHF store.

Don't we have a commercial member out there who can confirm/debunk what I've just written?
Vessels with helidecks have airband radios on board, usually both desk and handheld; however airband radio's are surprisingly rare animals. Many manufactures just don't make them as sales are too limited. Motorola for instance, do not produce one.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 05:42   #83
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,942
Images: 1
Re: VHF Radio Use

took a while, but I asked a fellow who knew the answer. International code requires all passenger ships (off hand he did know how many passengers were necessary to be called a passenger ship in this case), to carry the hand held blue aircraft VHF.

all cargo ships with more than 36 crew are required to carry them also. there is no limit as who can buy one. You are free to use it to communicate with aircraft although he did note that idle chatter was frowned upon.

so actually, for those making passage this might be an item to have in the grab bag.
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 06:24   #84
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
took a while, but I asked a fellow who knew the answer. International code requires all passenger ships (off hand he did know how many passengers were necessary to be called a passenger ship in this case), to carry the hand held blue aircraft VHF.

all cargo ships with more than 36 crew are required to carry them also. there is no limit as who can buy one. You are free to use it to communicate with aircraft although he did note that idle chatter was frowned upon.

so actually, for those making passage this might be an item to have in the grab bag.
Hmm... this might need some clarification

In Oz and presumably most other countries that endorse the ITU regulations, there is a requirement to be an licensed operator before using an airband VHF radio. This is over and above a marine VHF license.

You would also require (in Oz at least), a station licence even if it is just a hand held radio and this requires an operational justification.

However I take your point that a hand held airband VHF radio could be advantage in the grab bag when passage making mid-ocean (and to hell with regulations )


I personally could not justify the cost or maintenance aspects and would rather put the dollars towards a GPLB or GEPIRB - YMMV . The satellites are always listening and are always there, aircraft not so guaranteed - OK maybe the North Atlantic is a special case
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 06:38   #85
Moderator
 
carstenb's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Copenhagen
Boat: Jeanneau Sun Fast 40.3
Posts: 4,942
Images: 1
Re: VHF Radio Use

Oh I agree. I happen to have the license so no problem there. I do think that when we do our RTW, I will get one. extra precaution, not very expensive and doesn't take much space





Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
Hmm... this might need some clarification

In Oz and presumably most other countries that endorse the ITU regulations, there is a requirement to be an licensed operator before using an airband VHF radio. This is over and above a marine VHF license.

You would also require (in Oz at least), a station licence even if it is just a hand held radio and this requires an operational justification.

However I take your point that a hand held airband VHF radio could be advantage in the grab bag when passage making mid-ocean (and to hell with regulations )


I personally could not justify the cost or maintenance aspects and would rather put the dollars towards a GPLB or GEPIRB - YMMV . The satellites are always listening and are always there, aircraft not so guaranteed - OK maybe the North Atlantic is a special case
__________________
I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted - Elmore Leonard
carstenb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 06:46   #86
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Usually South Florida these days
Posts: 825
Re: VHF Radio Use

It's been many years since I've purchased an aircraft radio, but I don't remember any restrictions on who could buy them. I bought from an FBO (fixed base operator) at a small airport. You can also get them on line from any number of places. Icom is the brand that I always trusted. You can get an idea of current pricing here - Icom from Aircraft Spruce

When using them, you always identify yourself by the tail number of your aircraft or your station identifier. For instance, a call might sound something like this - "Norwood Tower, this is Cessna Seven Five Seven Whiskey November, I am over Needham towers, inbound with information echo." If there are not other aircraft in the area with similar tail numbers, the tower might then respond with an abbreviated identifier & landing instructions, for instance - "Seven Whiskey November, this is Norwood Tower, information Echo is no longer current, please advise when you have current ATIS information."

Ground operations & airport contractors would identify themselves as such when asking for permission to use the taxiways, but I never encountered any other non-aircraft traffic on those radios.

I expect that the aircraft had a station license, but I don't remember for sure. I always rented aircraft, so I was never the person that would have needed to apply for a station license if one was needed.

If you are deeply out to sea, I can't imagine that there are a whole lot of regulations preventing a boat from having a friendly chat with an aircraft above, but I don't know that for fact. If you tried to call in a false threat, like a bomb scare or something like that, I would then expect a military response.

Misuse of marine VHF radios is frowned upon. Misuse of airband radios is probably frowned upon even more heavily. A pair of FA-18 Hornets being scrambled over your head or an armed boarding of your vessel by local authorities would fit my definition of frowned upon heavily.

Airband radios, even the hand held ones, usually also have a navigation system in them. In the old days it was always a VOR (very high frequency omnidirectional radio beacon). These days it may be a GPS. I never tried using a VOR while on the ocean, so I don't know if it would work for a boat or not.
__________________
pbiJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-08-2013, 07:03   #87
Senior Cruiser
 
Opie91's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: CT
Boat: C&C 34
Posts: 811
Re: VHF Radio Use

As the general public you are not free to use aviation bands in the US.

Per FCC website:

Licensing

On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically. All other aircraft radio stations must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.

FCC: Wireless Services: Aircraft Stations: Aircraft Stations Home
__________________
Opie91 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 02:05   #88
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie91 View Post
As the general public you are not free to use aviation bands in the US.

Per FCC website:

Licensing

On October 25, 1996, the FCC released a Report and Order in WT Docket No. 96-82 (text) eliminating the individual licensing requirement for all aircraft, including scheduled air carriers, air taxis and general aviation aircraft operating domestically. This means that you do not need a license to operate a two-way VHF radio, radar, or emergency locator transmitter (ELT) aboard aircraft operating domestically. All other aircraft radio stations must be licensed by the FCC either individually or by fleet.

FCC: Wireless Services: Aircraft Stations: Aircraft Stations Home
It's perfectly legal to use the airband in a genuine distress situation, which is the only use which was being discussed here.
__________________
"Parce que je suis heureux en mer, et peut-ętre pour sauver mon ame. . . "
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 05:31   #89
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
It's been many years since I've purchased an aircraft radio, but I don't remember any restrictions on who could buy them...
Yep, anyone can buy one but not everyone is allowed to use one
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
If you are deeply out to sea, I can't imagine that there are a whole lot of regulations preventing a boat from having a friendly chat with an aircraft above, but I don't know that for fact.
Well the regulations would still exist but there won't be anyone around to enforce them
As mentioned earlier by another poster, one would have to first establish contact on 121.5MHz and then switch to the 123.45 MHz which is the (unofficial) chit chat freq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbiJim View Post
Airband radios, even the hand held ones, usually also have a navigation system in them. In the old days it was always a VOR (very high frequency omnidirectional radio beacon). These days it may be a GPS. I never tried using a VOR while on the ocean, so I don't know if it would work for a boat or not.
These are still available but unless coastal in close proximately to a VOR station, one would be out of range of land based VOR stations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
It's perfectly legal to use the airband in a genuine distress situation, which is the only use which was being discussed here.
Of course
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-08-2013, 05:44   #90
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
Re: VHF Radio Use

Quote:

If you actually take the 20 minutes to read the instructions that come with a VHF, you will probably get enough information on proper protocols to use the radio correctly & not make a fool of yourself in public.
Unfortunately , with the introduction of GMDSS, DSC calling DSC distress based protocols, reading VHF manual isn't enough anymore. It shows in the US, where there is widespread lack of knowledge about GMDSS, and DSC in general .

In the harmonised European CEPT VHF license, less then 1/3 is specifically about voice and voice procedures

Dave
__________________

__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
radio

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GPS communication to VHF radio mpoulter Marine Electronics 26 04-03-2009 08:54
VHF Marine Radio question?? Slingshot Marine Electronics 28 15-02-2009 18:20
XM Radio & Sirius Radio cchris0411 Fishing, Recreation & Fun 25 13-03-2007 02:10
VHF RADIO RANGE GordMay Marine Electronics 16 24-02-2007 10:33
vhf radio davemaskell Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 7 04-07-2005 22:19



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:08.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.