Training vs boat insurance

[theBeachBoy]

Hi, CF first post here but long time lurker.

I am planning a multi-year voyage in 6 years with the family. The good thing about this delay is that I can prepare better.

Sailing background: I have a cottage by the lake where I have sailed small sailboats (Hobie cat, Tanzer 16) and spent 2 months on a 43' sailboat as crew, from the US down to St. Lucia via the Caribbean 1500. No experience in the last 5 years (kids in the way

My post is two fold

1- what training would you recommend? ASA, RYA, IYT, they are all equivalent? And up to what level?

2- since I have a large family and intend to buy an fairly expensive boat ($2-300k), would it be wise to use the time ahead to build insurance experience? Like getting some certification, buying a smallish and cheap sailboat to build history? I would not have much time to use it as life is quite hectic these days, but on paper it's there... End goal is to lower cost and/or have more options.

Any advise welcome!

[belizesailor]

Recreational level certifications (ASA, RYA, etc) may get you a minor discount with some carriers.

Relevant experience/pro liscencing make it easier to get expanded navigation area coverage. Example: a friend of mine has strong near coastal experience, but not much offshore, Im going along on a Pacific crossing with him next year partially to satisfy his insurance co. Im confident he could do this crossing without me, but his insurance co wants more than that.

[belizesailor]

BTW, regardless of certifications/liscening/experience, marine insurance has become VERY expensive since the massive losses of last hurricane season...$300K is gonna be painfully expensive to insure...see recent threads here on insurance. As a result, more are now opting to go liability only coverage.

[theBeachBoy]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

BTW, regardless of certifications/liscening/experience, marine insurance has become VERY expensive since the massive losses of last hurricane season...$300K is gonna be painfully expensive to insure...see recent threads here on insurance. As a result, more are now opting to go liability only coverage.

Yes I have read quite a lot of threads on the subject.

I guess they raised premiums for everyone even if you are far from hurricane zones?

They should have hurricane as a separate clause with distinct price.

[belizesailor]

Yes, the changes in the insurance industry seem to have affected many, even those not in hurricane alley.

Many insurance policies have a "strom box" clause which eliminates or reduces coverage if inside certain areas (typically lat/lon bounded). Also a related "named storm" clause which similarly reduces coverage if whacked by a named storm.

[admiralslater]

To answer your question , I was in a similar boat to you 6 years ago . I decided after a bit of research that imo the RYA program was best for me and most recognized certification.
At that point I had 50 years experience on the Great Lakes,owned a 36 foot cat ,done offshore trips ,in a similar situation to you .
I had to start with day skipper as I had no idea of how to work with tides and charts and all sorts of other stuff .
I took the theory on line ( Navathome) and my practical on a one week trip in the Grenadines . I later did my coastal skipper in the same way . I learned a ton and use it often . Even if it is not a big break in insurance the knowledge you get is worth it .

[theBeachBoy]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

To answer your question , I was in a similar boat to you 6 years ago . I decided after a bit of research that imo the RYA program was best for me and most recognized certification.
At that point I had 50 years experience on the Great Lakes,owned a 36 foot cat ,done offshore trips ,in a similar situation to you .
I had to start with day skipper as I had no idea of how to work with tides and charts and all sorts of other stuff .
I took the theory on line ( Navathome) and my practical on a one week trip in the Grenadines . I later did my coastal skipper in the same way . I learned a ton and use it often . Even if it is not a big break in insurance the knowledge you get is worth it .

Thanks, I also tend towards RYA from research. Seems their training manuals are too notch.

Thanks for the feedback!

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by theBeachBoy

Thanks, I also tend towards RYA from research. Seems their training manuals are too notch.

Thanks for the feedback!

As far as I know, part of this answer depends where one intends to cruise. My Great Lakes insurance is good to, more or less, Nova Scotia. I've received a price break due to my RYA certification and I intend to upgrade to Yachtmaster in England or France, because there's a lot of training options there that aren't in North America. So for us that means "what insurance off-soundings for the Atlantic and Europe will we get?"

Your nautical mileage may vary in this regard. However, understand that North America is more lax than Europe and European marinas and YCs often want to see an ICC or equivalent (like RYA) plus enough insurance to pay locals if your boat sinks or collides with something in their waters.

Lots of North Americans happily sail away with only whatever their localities require, and that's pretty minimal in some places. But my experience suggests that if you go to the trouble to get RYA/ICC docs, you will have an easier and cheaper time and will consolidate your sailing knowledge (and reveal holes in same) under a recognized, international standard.

[jmschmidt]

Someone needs to post sample insurance rates for full value hull coverage along with liability and liability only. The hull coverage will vary if in a hurricane area, some times not in hurricane areas, on never in hurricane areas. Liability may vary by area as well.

I pretty much paid for my boat (41' mono) with full hull coverage, so after 20 years I went to liability only at $54 a year for $300,000 and I have another $1.5 million of liability for a small extra charge for the boat on my umbrella policy.

[belizesailor]

A couple of recent related threads that discuss insurance costs:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=211603


Insurance - Pantaenius USA - Non Renewal


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...d.php?t=210218


Liability Insurance

[MJH]

Originally Posted by theBeachBoy

Hi, CF first post here but long time lurker.

I am planning a multi-year voyage in 6 years with the family. The good thing about this delay is that I can prepare better.

Sailing background: I have a cottage by the lake where I have sailed small sailboats (Hobie cat, Tanzer 16) and spent 2 months on a 43' sailboat as crew, from the US down to St. Lucia via the Caribbean 1500. No experience in the last 5 years (kids in the way

My post is two fold

1- what training would you recommend? ASA, RYA, IYT, they are all equivalent? And up to what level?

2- since I have a large family and intend to buy an fairly expensive boat ($2-300k), would it be wise to use the time ahead to build insurance experience? Like getting some certification, buying a smallish and cheap sailboat to build history? I would not have much time to use it as life is quite hectic these days, but on paper it's there... End goal is to lower cost and/or have more options.

Any advise welcome!

Congratulations on thinking ahead. You don't say where you are going but I assume offshore.

By all means take whatever courses you deem interesting an necessary to your experience level for no better reason than enhancing your confidence level. However, when I was obtaining insurance for my roundtrip voyage to Hawaii a couple years ago the company's requirements included at least a crew of four and at least two with offshore experience...they didn't say anything about courses, they wanted actual voyage experience offshore. Different companies may very well have different requirements.

That said, you would enhance your ability to get insurance with real world offshore experience on other boats while preparing for your own boat.

I also recommend you actually talk to some companies to get an idea of what they currently require and their limitations such as weather windows for certain areas, excluded areas, and ports of arrival. These will probably change with time but it is a start.

Lastly, there is a big difference between being crew on someone else's boat and captain of your own vessel. Give yourself enough time to learn your new boat and its systems and gaining confidence with it.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[hellosailor]

Beachboy, assuming rashly that you are in the US, ASA certification and experience with a "similar" boat may be the big issues. I'd suggest calling IMIS or another reputable broker and asking them about actual discounts from insurers--they will know them.

Bear in mind that if you are going offshore with your family and you are the only person on board with offshore experience, that's a SOLO passage as far as your insurer is concerned. They may require other experienced crew to cover the trip, so you may want your wife at least to gain some training and experience as well.

Also see if there is a US Power Squadron or USCGAuxiliary boating safety class offered (usually pre-season) near you. Taking their basic safety courses (one day) often gets you at least a small insurance discount.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

)Also a related "named storm" clause which similarly reduces coverage if whacked by a named storm.

Which is nuts because simple winter storms are now named as well. Coincidence?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Which is nuts because simple winter storms are now named as well. Coincidence?

Interesting. I havent lived anywhere that has winter for almost 20 years so hadnt noticed that change.

[jrbogie]

Originally Posted by theBeachBoy

Hi, CF first post here but long time lurker.

I am planning a multi-year voyage in 6 years with the family. The good thing about this delay is that I can prepare better.

Sailing background: I have a cottage by the lake where I have sailed small sailboats (Hobie cat, Tanzer 16) and spent 2 months on a 43' sailboat as crew, from the US down to St. Lucia via the Caribbean 1500. No experience in the last 5 years (kids in the way

My post is two fold

1- what training would you recommend? ASA, RYA, IYT, they are all equivalent? And up to what level?

2- since I have a large family and intend to buy an fairly expensive boat ($2-300k), would it be wise to use the time ahead to build insurance experience? Like getting some certification, buying a smallish and cheap sailboat to build history? I would not have much time to use it as life is quite hectic these days, but on paper it's there... End goal is to lower cost and/or have more options.

Any advise welcome!

My insurance company said that they put little or no emphasis on training. They have found training by inexperienced instructors which are prevalent at most schools is not helpful in reducing risk. They discount for experience heavily.