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Old 22-05-2016, 17:49   #76
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Let's be realistic. Sail Boats are not really a problem on the water ways.

Powered boats on the other hand can be. Jet Ski's for example ran rife around here for a number of years before they clamped down on their use.

And I've experienced Sydney Harbour (only once) with their massive big, many HP recreational motor boats that cause problems through their ignorance to both other recreational and commerical vessels on the water.

At some stage, the line has to be drawn.
Agreed!

And it seems that there is all too often a personality quirk that draws arrogant bully type folks to buying and operating big power boats in the Sydney (and Gold Coast) areas... to our peril!

While it is certainly possible to get in trouble in a yacht, in general there is far less hazard to others when typical sized sailing vessels are incompetently operated. Demanding the same sort of license for sailing a 35 foot Bene vs a 35 foot Riviera, capable of 25+ knots seems unwarranted to me. (Examples chosen at random... no offense meant).

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Old 22-05-2016, 17:52   #77
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Agreed!

And it seems that there is all too often a personality quirk that draws arrogant bully type folks to buying and operating big power boats in the Sydney (and Gold Coast) areas... to our peril!

While it is certainly possible to get in trouble in a yacht, in general there is far less hazard to others when typical sized sailing vessels are incompetently operated. Demanding the same sort of license for sailing a 35 foot Bene vs a 35 foot Riviera, capable of 25+ knots seems unwarranted to me. (Examples chosen at random... no offense meant).

Jim
IN theory, it could be a 35 meter Riviera and still only need a recreational license to operate it. The only problem would be is that most Ports would require a pilot to bring the vessel in and out and that would be expensive.
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Old 23-05-2016, 03:31   #78
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Bertie,

I think what you want will work in some places not in others.

Then think about boat size. I think it is OK to operate a small and slow craft and a pain in the back when any government want to license kayakers or small traditional coastal fishers (like the Old Man and the Sea).

I would insist though on obligatory training and certification of boats bigger than X and / or propelled with hp engines bigger than Y.

b.
That sounds reasonable, but in practice would lead to some absurd situations. For example, with the title I'm applying for, I will be able to pilot pleasure boats up to 50', not further than 12 miles from shore. But honestly, with my current expertise I would be a danger in anything more than 25'. However, I feel perfectly safe in smaller sailboats - even without a license. It's practice that makes the master. And it's my feeling that most unfortunate events are caused not by lack of knowledge, but by reckless behaviour and poor judgement, and there's no licensing policy that can stop that. That's just an additional hurdle that keeps people, even very motivated individuals, away from sailing.

And as Rustic Charm stated, there is really a difference between sail and motor. I also think that anyone who manages to successfully hoist sails and get the boat moving is perfectly safe to go. Not so much with a tourist that rents a 150HP motorboat, turns the key and thinks it handles like his SUV.
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Old 23-05-2016, 04:29   #79
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
Once the government gets involved, we are screwed! I'm in favor of licensing but we have the wrong folks overseeing it. Government officials, with the exception of the military, are usually ill informed, lack experience and are generally useless when it comes to executing anything! Military excepted...
Find a government program that has been successfully implemented and I'll bet they hired a private contractor to do it. Cheers, Phil
Yes and this private contractor should/would/could be Insurance companies. I am sure that they would regulate it the same as they do for Automobiles. Most if not all regulation is driven by the Insurance companies which requires testing, graduated licensing, and other such measures (seat belts) which reduce their risks and subsequent costs.

Australia already has mandatory third party insurance in most states for 15m and over. All that would have to be done is require liability insurance for any powered vessel over say 9.9hp and stand back. Training and experience would then become a large factor in the cost of operation of a motor/sailing vessel.

I am not so sure that everyone on here would agree with this solution but Jackdale and the rest of the Instructors would stand to make a fortune teaching those Ontario Boys how to drive a boat in the Ocean. If it improved some of the docking skills around here it might be worth it.

Of course mandatory insurance in Ontario has been the law for years so I might be way off base here but at least you can get paid for your damages.
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Old 23-05-2016, 04:43   #80
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Yes and this private contractor should/would/could be Insurance companies. I am sure that they would regulate it the same as they do for Automobiles. Most if not all regulation is driven by the Insurance companies which requires testing, graduated licensing, and other such measures (seat belts) which reduce their risks and subsequent costs.

Australia already has mandatory third party insurance in most states for 15m and over. All that would have to be done is require liability insurance for any powered vessel over say 9.9hp and stand back. Training and experience would then become a large factor in the cost of operation of a motor/sailing vessel.

I am not so sure that everyone on here would agree with this solution but Jackdale and the rest of the Instructors would stand to make a fortune teaching those Ontario Boys how to drive a boat in the Ocean. If it improved some of the docking skills around here it might be worth it.

Of course mandatory insurance in Ontario has been the law for years so I might be way off base here but at least you can get paid for your damages.
What mandatory third party insurance ?
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Old 23-05-2016, 04:43   #81
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Governments love to create problems where there are none, at the end of the day it comes down to control and revenue.

I learnt how to drive a car long before I got a license, a license doesn't mean you can drive, all it means is that government has given you the right to drive – something which really isn't within their power to do in the first place but that's for another discussion - same thing with a sailboat, a license doesn't mean you can sail. Best way to learn is to start sailing, start by crewing a sailboat, great way to learn, the only way to learn is to do it. Sitting and theorizing in some classroom isn't going do you any good, besides, all that stuff you can do on your own and for free.

People really need to start checking their authoritarian desires a bit more, because if this would become a reality rest assured the goalpost would keep moving and moving until mere mortals no longer could afford a licence and you would eventually even be required a license to "operate" a darn canoe.

We are talking about government here, we are talking about control freaks who wish nothing more than to control every aspect of our lives.

This is a none issue, it really is.
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Old 23-05-2016, 04:48   #82
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
Governments love to create problems where there are none, at the end of the day it comes down to control and revenue.

I learnt how to drive a car long before I got a license, a license doesn't mean you can drive, all it means is that government has given you the right to drive something which really isn't within their power to do in the first place but that's for another discussion - same thing with a sailboat, a license doesn't mean you can sail. Best way to learn is to start sailing, start by crewing a sailboat, great way to learn, the only way to learn is to do it. Sitting and theorizing in some classroom isn't going do you any good, besides, all that stuff you can do on your own and for free.

People really need to start checking their authoritarian desires a bit more, because if this would become a reality rest assured the goalpost would keep moving and moving until mere mortals no longer could afford a licence and you would eventually even be required a license to "operate" a darn canoe.
Yes having a motor vehicle license does mean you can drive, yes.
Having a mc license means you can drive a mc, yes.

Well, at least it is the case in most western countries.

These license's are indications that you have a certain level of competence, in that YES you can drive, which is also, at least in this country, before getting a license, you are tested to make sure you can in fact drive.
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Old 23-05-2016, 04:54   #83
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Yes having a motor vehicle license does mean you can drive, yes.
Having a mc license means you can drive a mc, yes.
No it doesn't. It just means you are allowed to drive, nothing more. As I said, I learnt how to drive long before I got my licence, most people do, and that holds true for any western country too. In fact, I can sail without a licence too, the vast majority on this planet can and in fact are. I've been sailing since I was 15.

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
before getting a license, you are tested to make sure you can in fact drive
20 minutes of driving doesn't really reveal whether you are capable of driving or not, let alone if you "drive" an automatic. Most of that stuff is focused on theory and road signs more than driving.

It isn't an issue with sailboats, none.

Example of nonsense.
You aren't allowed to buy a leader bike when you have gotten your mc license for example, no see there are restrictions. So, you as a grown man are not allowed to buy a leader bike. You have your licence, but your licence doesn't allow you to buy what ever motorcycle you want.

I told you, get government involved giving them free reign is a bad idea.
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Old 23-05-2016, 05:16   #84
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Van Der Beek View Post
No it doesn't. It just means you are allowed to drive, nothing more. As I said, I learnt how to drive long before I got my licence, most people do, and that holds true for any western country too. In fact, I can sail without a licence too, the vast majority on this planet can and in fact are. I've been sailing since I was 15.

20 minutes of driving doesn't really reveal whether you are capable of driving or not, let alone if you "drive" an automatic. Most of that stuff is focused on theory and road signs more than driving.

It isn't an issue with sailboats, none.
Dude, you may have some strange idea that a license simply 'allows' you to drive, but in this part of the world, obtaining a license to drive a car, mc, truck, is evidence that you have a level of competence. This is what the courts view it as and what the public view it has.

And in this part of the world 'everyone' learns to drive before they get a license.
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Old 23-05-2016, 05:18   #85
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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What mandatory third party insurance ?
Is there no Mandatory Insurance down there in Tas. The last of the Great Frontiers??? I even had to provide 10mm in Darwin. Cheap enough here though!
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Old 23-05-2016, 05:23   #86
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Dude, you may have some strange idea that a license simply 'allows' you to drive
Not at all. I pointed out to you that a licence doesn't mean you can drive, let alone sail. I wasn't talking about the theoretic aspects of driving and sailing.
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Old 23-05-2016, 05:25   #87
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Is there no Mandatory Insurance down there in Tas. The last of the Great Frontiers??? I even had to provide 10mm in Darwin. Cheap enough here though!
Did you mean 10 million?

Are you talking about the requirement of marinas that you have third party cover?

Or are you from Queensland that requires pollution and wreck insurance?
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Old 23-05-2016, 06:47   #88
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Rustic Charm View Post
Did you mean 10 million?

Are you talking about the requirement of marinas that you have third party cover?

Or are you from Queensland that requires pollution and wreck insurance?
Yes 10 million liability Insurance. I was pretty sure both Queensland and NSW require this Insurance for vessels 15m and up. And yes the Marinas in Darwin require $5 mm even though there is no NT requirement although I think this had something to do with the Great Black Stripe Mussel clean up.

Not sure what the difference between 14m and 15m is though. They use the verbage "wreck" and "pollution" a lot though so I guess this is the big thing with the reef and all.
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Old 23-05-2016, 08:55   #89
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Some of the posts on here conveniently ignore some fundamentals, whether for licenses for driving or boating. People who just start driving without getting a license would not take the time to learn the rules of the road so far as stopping at stop signs, yields, right of ways, and on and on and on. It does not make them a better driver as far as tootling down the road and staying on it. But it does at least expose them to the bare minimums of how to they should behave with other cars. Something some of them promptly ignore when they blow through stop signs but they have no excuse not knowing they are not "advisory" only. Can't believe any of you would argue otherwise but I know some of you will.

Sailing and powerboating are different of course in a few ways. The same issues that cars have to deal with regarding dealing with other boats is the same. But even if you don't buy in to that you try to make the weak argument that because a sailboat is "generally" slower than "some" powerboats they shouldn't have to be licensed.

I mentioned it before but so far as I went back no one (conveniently) responded to it: skippers who don't have a clue to what they are doing do not only put themselves at risk (their god-given right to do whatever they want including kill themselves) but they put a lot of others at risk. If nothing else the responders who have to go save them, whether on the rocks in a big blow in inland waters or off shore. Or the crew who don't know how clueless the skipper is. And it costs money that I for one would rather not cover with my taxes. I really have zero tolerance of those who go out without a clue and then yell for help when things go wrong. Sometimes only because they got seasick and wanted to come home to their nice warm bed.

In the past idiots like that would just disappear. Now they have radios to call for help. If anyone wants some examples, there are plenty of them on CF. A license won't prevent all the boneheaded things a boater could do but it takes a lot of the excuses away. Insurance companies are only in it for the money and they figured out a long time ago that they have far fewer claims when people have licenses versus those who don't. They don't do it because they get money off of the licenses.

In Washington state, they keep trying to close as many licensing places as possible. Obviously they are not rolling in the dough making huge profits from doing licenses. The fees don't cover the expenses.

That's my rant and I'm sticking to it. Because it's true. IMHO of course. It's true anyway.

Licensing won't fix everything that a clue person could do but it
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Old 23-05-2016, 09:37   #90
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Speaking only for the USA....

In the USA all rights belong to the people except those specifically granted to the Government (Federal or State). This is important.

The government does not license you to drive or operate a boat. Anyone can buy a car, truck, tank, powerboat, sailboat, submarine and operate it on private property as much as they wish. No need to ask permission. (OK no working guns in the tank or torpedos)

The key is that it must be operated on private property.

The government does license you to operate your car on the public roads and the federal government (via the Coast Guard) does license you to operate a commercial vessel on all waters but does not license recreational use. Commercial operation of a boat on private waters is allowed because you now have gone "public" and effect other people.

The various states of the US do not have the right to license recreational boaters. Those states can make regulations to ensure public safety on public waters. And thus the Boater Education program came into being.

The "us" here on CF do not need to be forced to learn how to operate a boat. With rare exception we all understand the need and took steps to become capable of safe operation.

Thus as so often the case the desire is to force "them" who do not see the need for competency to go learn how to be safe.

And there in lies the trap - we ask (no, demand) that the government keep us safe from them. And the government does that to all of us in a typical way.

Back to Boater Education requirements.

Boating mostly in the PNW (Oregon, Washington, BC) I like the Boater Education program. It was set up as a way to reduce accidents on the water by requiring a minimum educational level in boating rules and regulations. It is a one time thing that does not expire. And thus is not part of the revenue stream (read tax) for the states. It has reduced the accident rate (or so it appears).

Of course, idiots are idiots and that is where Darwin comes in. (it is often forgotten that Darwin also says: If you cannot see the idiot coming then perhaps you need to die with them. Pay attention!) (PPS just ignore this paragraph if you do not see the humor)
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