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Old 07-05-2016, 23:29   #31
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by AnglaisInHull View Post
So, don't know what level of certification people are thinking about here ...

I have the PCOC (Pleasure Craft Operator Card), required to operate any powered vessel in Canada. It required passing a multiple choice exam that covered a bunch of stuff that I would have learned anyway.

Some people say that this exam is meaningless because it's so basic only an idiot could possibly fail it.

But, on the other hand, if it keeps a few of the idiots off the water ...

Hardly relevant in this context. IMO anyone who is able to learn how to sail will have no trouble with this level of permit.
I do not believe this is required for any craft less than 9.9hp. Also there is no requirement for any sailboat that has no auxiliary engine. this card does however permit you to operate any vessel no matter the tonnage as long as it is a pleasure craft not used for commercial purposes.

Nice thing though is that it is accepted world wide even though when it was introduced there was only the test, (multiple choice) no training and there was no onus to prove who was writing the test.
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Old 08-05-2016, 00:14   #32
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Licensing would be a bad idea.

I like to keep government out of my life as much as possible. Licensing is an infringement on freedom. Sometimes, it's a necessary infringement. Should a license be required to drive an 18 wheeler? Sure.

A special license to drive a cab? That's really just government intrusion and control of the market. Why not let the market take care of itself? I'm fine with Uber.

When you trade freedom for safety, the bar needs to be set very high. Unless thee's overwhelming evidence that the lack of licensing poses substantial danger to the public, and that licensing will effectively mitigate that danger, then don't do it.

I don't see any clear reason to believe licensing would result in safer boating.

When in doubt, err on the side of freedom.
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Old 08-05-2016, 01:20   #33
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Call me a cynical old bugger or a conspiracy theorist if you like but I think the main purpose of it is to deprive one of a decent excuse when the judge asks the question


"Why did you try to pass Mr X on the wrong side and cause a collision which sunk his boat, Raymond R"


One is not in a position to say,


"I did not know I was supposed to pass him on that side your Honour"


Because the prosecuting attorney is going to leap up and say


"Raymond R is a lying mongrel your honour he had to get that question right to get his boating license"


In Australia one passes a boat opposite to how one passes a car and I fairly often have to bring the boat to a crash stop to let ignorant souls pass me on the wrong side (Hard to blame me if I am at a dead stop in the water)
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Old 08-05-2016, 06:14   #34
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

The biggest problem is the mentality of Americans and in particular the youngins. They are used to planking down the cash and getting at the helm and full throttle away. They do very little which requires any investment in time if it doesn't involve an E-screen of some kind, oh and of course the thumb forefinger manipulation. Free or not, education takes a small investment of time which would interfere with social media time. Am I cynical, yea 70 years have made me thus.

I have been a member of the USPS off and on since 78, long before any talk of licensing. It's what we did. I have had some close calls on boats and it usually involved drunk boaters who hadn't a clue of what just happened.

Even so, licensing IMO is not the answer. Mandatory education is a step in the right direction and said education not aimed at the least common denominator. Not everyone can be a doctor, scuba diver or boater. Our attitude that everyone is equal is hogwash. If it denies someone the ability to own or operate a boat, so be it. I have taken flying lessons and decided that it was not for me. I didn't make enough money nor had the time necessary to do sufficient flight time to stay safe.

Thats my rant.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:09   #35
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Impossible to police. Waste of money.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:11   #36
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

I am an instructor in a pretty busy marina, which fortunately provides ample teaching opportunities to point out real time examples of Rules of the Road.

I am routinely asked by new students, "do people need a license to operate a boat?" I always tell them, "Nope, anybody can buy a boat and get on the water; no training required."

Given the context of the question and the general lack of knowledge possessed by those who ask it, there is always a voice in my head which questions the sanity of such a policy - particularly late in the afternoon on busy weekends with a large number of paddle boarders, jet skiers, and boats motoring and sailing in and out of the various basins and the main channel.

This in spite of the fact that I am generally a libertarian by nature.
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Old 08-05-2016, 08:30   #37
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Even though a license is required over here in Germany, Idon't believe it is necessary. I sail in the Elbe estuary with more than 30,000 commercial vessels moving about per year. They usually sort out those 3 - 5 of us every year who are dumb or uneducated enough - "survival of the fittest" is what it's called, I think?

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Old 08-05-2016, 09:22   #38
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No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
Myself I'd rather not be forced into having a license. California will start requiring one in 2018 ish. Luckily it will be phased in slowly so by the time I'm 73 ish. I might be too old to need it.

Mind you the licensing looks rather simplistic and I feel will do little to prevent boating injuries. Said injuries due mainly to vessels under 16' in length and alcohol. Sailboats barely even make the list.

My preference is less government, not more.

In California it is even more ridiculous when you see who/what are excluded from the requirement...including rental boats. So the people who are likely to know the least and have the least incentive to learn are exempt from the requirement to know anything. Show your credit card and rent a speedboat. Good plan.


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Old 08-05-2016, 09:27   #39
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Connecticut has a boater safety course requirement , and it does provide a good base of knowledge of charts, colregs, required safety gear and covers on a lot of subjects (took it five years ago when I bought my boat , having never owned even a row boat before) Now if you want to see how well a lot of these boater safety card carrying citizens behave on the water come visit on any of the big three summer holidays .( Memorial Day, July fourth, and Labor Day)
I won't leave the mooring on those weekends due to the lack of common
sense and courtesy not to mention safe operation of their boats. And these are people who took the class and passed the class. Not that any other summer weekend is devoid of any number of idiots out there but the holidays bring out the masses for viewing .
Not that I want more regulation , far from it , the general freedom one has
While on the water was one thing that drew me to it. Previous to this I was taking flying lessons and one of the main reasons I abandoned it was the level of regulation present in general aviation (born to late ) but I don't see how these mandatory classes are turning out better boaters . If one does not possess common sense or courtesy towards others before buying a boat , classes and a test won't help beyond giving a warm fuzzy feeling to the politicians who passed the legislation .
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:34   #40
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
Call me a cynical old bugger or a conspiracy theorist if you like but I think the main purpose of it is to deprive one of a decent excuse when the judge asks the question


"Why did you try to pass Mr X on the wrong side and cause a collision which sunk his boat, Raymond R"


One is not in a position to say,


"I did not know I was supposed to pass him on that side your Honour"


Because the prosecuting attorney is going to leap up and say


"Raymond R is a lying mongrel your honour he had to get that question right to get his boating license"


In Australia one passes a boat opposite to how one passes a car and I fairly often have to bring the boat to a crash stop to let ignorant souls pass me on the wrong side (Hard to blame me if I am at a dead stop in the water)
Don't be too sure of that RaymondR... I was anchored one night in a small bay on the British Columbia coast when a large power boat drifted down on us. The owner (unlicensed) was an attorney who sued me for not keeping an anchor watch among other alleged transgressions. Fortunately, I had taken position readings after anchoring which I had logged that proved I had been anchored in the same spot for close to 11 hours!
The judge told me in court that he held me to a higher standard because I was a licensed skipper but found that the vessel that had drifted down on us was 100% at fault due to improper anchoring procedures and 'poor' seamanship.
I still had to pay for my legal defense (rather the vessel owner did) but it was a lesson I never forgot about the hazards of being licensed.
Just sayin'... Even if you are not moving can be a problem! Cheers, Phil
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:42   #41
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

big brother has enough arms.
50 ton masters ha ha ha ha still stoopit. just like cars.......
requirement? hopefully not.
and where they gonna police this--and the cost.
prolly take it from social security, in which case, piss off.
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:43   #42
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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I believe that it now needs to be treated as a privilege, meaning you must first be able to prove your competency before putting yourself and others at risk..
Yet another Freedom traded away to the Government masters for the myth of security...I saddens me to see but such is our culture today. Personal Responsibility has been traded away and once gone, it is gone forever.... I sure hope the chains of security won't weight people down too much, but they always do...drip....drip....drip....
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Old 08-05-2016, 09:46   #43
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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Originally Posted by Tayana42 View Post
In California it is even more ridiculous when you see who/what are excluded from the requirement...including rental boats. So the people who are likely to know the least and have the least incentive to learn are exempt from the requirement to know anything. Show your credit card and rent a speedboat. Good plan.


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Actually it proves what this is all about...Not Safety...but Money...
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:03   #44
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt Phil View Post
I was anchored one night in a small bay on the British Columbia coast when a large power boat drifted down on us. The owner (unlicensed) was an attorney who sued me for not keeping an anchor watch among other alleged transgressions. Fortunately, I had taken position readings after anchoring which I had logged that proved I had been anchored in the same spot for close to 11 hours!
The judge told me in court that he held me to a higher standard because I was a licensed skipper but found that the vessel that had drifted down on us was 100% at fault due to improper anchoring procedures and 'poor' seamanship.
I still had to pay for my legal defense (rather the vessel owner did) but it was a lesson I never forgot about the hazards of being licensed.
Just sayin'... Even if you are not moving can be a problem! Cheers, Phil
I got hit at anchor last November. I'd been there for two days. The bozo who hit me said: "I saw you when we were coming into the dock, but thought you'd left!" That was the three hours he'd been in the bar!

He paid for everything, but it put a four month dent in my boating season (we sail all year round here).

THE GOVT WON'T DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THOSE WHO NEED EDUCATION AND THOSE OF US SMART ENOUGH TO RECOGNIZE THE NEED FOR SAFETY AND LEARNING, SO WHAT'S THE POINT?

We all seem to point out that the blowboaters are the real culprits. Are there dumb sailboaters? Of course there are, but a lot fewer. My example comes to mind, he had a C&C 32 SAILBOAT!

"One size fits all" education makes little sense.

The argument about doctors needing licenses is plain claptrap and the rebuttal to that makes a lot more sense.

I still sail on "crowded" SF Bay and find the sailboats do just fine (here for 35 years). It's the motorboats on cruise control with no one at the helm that are truly frightening (Mark Pierce excepted - he knows his stuff!!!).
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Old 08-05-2016, 10:07   #45
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Re: No certification or license required to own and operate a sailboat...

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True. This idiot (me) had a 100-percent score on the basic Power Squadron test.
Me too. I only took it out of idle curiosity as at my age it was not required. I had to get a Florida drivers license too when I moved here from the UK. That too was a total joke, with the practical taking place in the parking lot, and explains why there are so many dumb and dangerous Florida drivers on the local roads. Almost everyone hereabouts seems to be a 'captain', even some of the the checkout ladies at West. are there idiots about yessir. Back in my UK days there were plenty of fully qualified Yachtmasters ( a voluntary qualification and but at least one with with a meaningful syllabus) that I would never lend my boat too, but many totally unqualified ones that I would be happy to let use my boat.

Voluntary training and study works best in my book and that should be actively encouraged, but never compulsorily enforced.
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