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Old 31-12-2006, 15:27   #1
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License for Boating?#%#@%&^

This came out the last week

"WASHINGTON D.C.
- State governments would issue licenses to America's 77 million recreational boaters if U.S. Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen gets his way.
Allen said the potential for a terrorist attack launched from small boats means that states and the Coast Guard must cooperate better to watch who is on America's waterways. Though he doesn't yet have details or formal recommendations for how a national permit system would work, he said he'd like to see boating licenses be similar to automobile driver's licenses."


Yeah, I suppose having a license would stop any terrorist, what a crock of crap, it's just another nail in the coffin of liberty by using the "terrorist" excuse! I can't believe this, he should have paid more attention to the work he had done on lengthening those cutters....

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Old 31-12-2006, 15:50   #2
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Gee...

I dunno. It might be about as effective as building a 700-mile fence (no, actually about half that, and an "electronic one" at that) in a country with 5,000 miles of land borders and 3,000 miles of coastline.

Just further proof that the brain-dead are routinely promoted to high places in our country these days :-)

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Old 31-12-2006, 16:12   #3
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Hmm...

Driver's licenses do not appear to prevent terrorist attacks using car bombs.

Pilot's licenses do not appear to prevent terrorist attacks using airplanes.

Boater's licenses will prevent terrorist attacks using boats?
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Old 31-12-2006, 16:16   #4
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I am surprised they haven't used the threat of terrorists to push mandatory PFD use as well. Hard to strap on the explosives if you are wearing a PFD.
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Old 31-12-2006, 17:11   #5
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Ugh... what a lame country. It's rotting away faster than the ice sheet that just dropped off up in Canada.

They already have mandatory boating licenses in NJ, where I am now. Luckily, my Master's licese exempts me. They sure track you for that license though - finger prints, etc... all entered into a federal database which I'm now a part of.

They may require licenses, but I fail to see how they could even come close to enforcing them??? It's not like there are a ton of patrol boats out there stopping everyone every 15 mins. Are they adding those too?
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Old 31-12-2006, 17:19   #6
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If a license were tied to some evidence of competency to handle a boat, I'd be all for it. Based on what we've seen in South Florida, it sure might get some morons with more horsepower than brains off the water. OTOH, if the powers that be think that a license is going to prevent terrorism, then I think Coot nailed it 100%.

As for enforcement, it will likely be similar to cars. They don't stop every car on the road to check for a license, but if they believe you are breaking the law in some way and stop you, they can check for your license. And the local water cops that are hassling everyone in the So. Florida anchorages for overstaying their welcome are well suited to checking for licenses as well.

I think it is time to head for the Caribbean.
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Old 31-12-2006, 17:42   #7
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Since there have been SO many instances of recreational vessels being used for terrorism...Oh well. And I suppose they have discussed provisions for those who are state licensed? What about when other countries start requiring licensing? Will those be recognized? What about people sailing in from a country where a license isn't required? What a load of garbage! Bad things need to happen to people like that.
As for comparing it to auto licensing enforcement, police officers have to have a reason to stop you in a car. THe Coast Guard has explicit written authority to board at will, any vessel on navigable waters of the US. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that includes at your slip. For those who live aboard, but never go out, are they going to get cited? Who needs to be licensed anyway? Do my kids need a license if they stand watch? Nice to know big brother is putting so much thought into our "protection".
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Old 31-12-2006, 20:27   #8
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heron237

Would you mind posting the source of your info. I could not find any document where he mentions "boating licenses". I sure would like to read the doc. first hand!

Thanks,
delmarrey................................._/)



http://www.nndb.com/people/417/00010...en-1-sized.jpg

Here is a long Q & A session but no mention of license.

http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/aug06-38.php
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Old 31-12-2006, 20:47   #9
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The USCG can't get enough money appropriated to upgrade there radios so where would the money come from to implement this. Besides the US will be pretty close to bankrupt within the next decade.
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Old 01-01-2007, 02:24   #10
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Canada now requires a Pleasure Craft Operator Card (proof of operator competency) if
1. You operate a pleasure craft fitted with a motor AND are born after April 1, 1983; or
2. You operate a pleasure craft, fitted with a motor, that is under 4m (13 feet) in length (regardless of age).

If you were born before April 1, 1983 and operate a pleasure craft, fitted with a motor, that is 4 m and over in length, you will require proof of operator competency by September 15, 2009.

More: Frequently Asked Questions - Office of Boating Safety
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Old 01-01-2007, 17:42   #11
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Coast Guard Addresses Mandatory Licensing
Thursday, December 28, 2006
By Philip Ewing Special to Stateline.org
The agency's Commandant says better tracking of boaters will be a priority in coming years.
WASHINGTON D.C. - State governments would issue licenses to America's 77 million recreational boaters if U.S. Coast Guard Commandant Thad Allen gets his way.
Allen said the potential for a terrorist attack launched from small boats means that states and the Coast Guard must cooperate better to watch who is on America's waterways. Though he doesn't yet have details or formal recommendations for how a national permit system would work, he said he'd like to see boating licenses be similar to automobile driver's licenses.
Forty-four states now require some kind of mandatory education before boaters can get on the water, but just one - Alabama - oversees boaters with the same rigor it applies to motorists, according to the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators in Lexington, Ky.
Allen told a meeting of the National Conference of State Legislatures on Dec. 6 he expects resistance to his idea from state lawmakers who don't want to deal with the cost and details of licensing and from the multi-billion-dollar boat building and tourism industries, which don't want to risk a drop in revenues.
Still, Allen said the debate on licensing has to start somewhere.
"I'm trying to stick my toe in the water and see if I get bit by a piranha," Allen said.
It hasn't yet come to that, but the nation's largest boating advocacy group is wary of the permitting idea.
"Mandatory education is one thing," said Chris Edmonston, director of boating safety for the Boat Owners Association of the United Stated (BoatU.S.). "We're not opposed to having people take a course. But we wouldn't want to see it turn into a license that could be restricted or taken away."
The driver's license analogy was not a good start, he said.
"Driving a car is considered a privilege conferred by the state, but boating is considered a right," Edmonston said. "It gets back to that 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' sort of thing."
Because there are no formal details and Allen just "wants to create a dialogue," neither the Coast Guard nor boating groups would guess how much it could cost for every state to issue more stringent boat permits. What is certain is Allen's purpose in calling for licenses: America's under-supervised waterways are vulnerable to terrorist attacks, he said.
The United States already has endured terrorism using small civilian craft, albeit overseas. In 2000, suicide bombers in the port of Aden, Yemen, used an inflatable boat to blow themselves up next to the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 sailors and wounding 39 others.
"As good as we get at surveillance, as good as we get at patrolling and creating deterrence out there, sooner or later we're going to have to come to grips with the fact that we need to know to a greater certainty who are operating boats out there, what boats are out there," Allen said.
At present, state maritime rules and tracking vary widely, said Gail Kulp, educational director of the National Association of State Boating Law Administrators (NASBLA). These rules can vary even between states along the same coastline: Maryland, for example, has no age restrictions on who can pilot a recreational boat, but in Virginia, which shares the Chesapeake Bay, operators must be at least 14 years old.
Penalties also vary widely, Kulp said. If people in Florida and Indiana are found to be operating boats under the influence of drugs or alcohol, their motor vehicle driver's licenses can be suspended. But 39 states do not penalize driver's licenses for violations on the water. Devising uniform rules and enabling better tracking of boaters will be a priority for the Coast Guard in the coming years, Allen said, along with an appropriate respect for civil rights.
"I can understand as we move toward trying to understand what's going on out the water, to improve safety and security, there's a point to which the rights of our citizens need to be prime," Kulp said.
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Old 01-01-2007, 20:16   #12
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Still, Allen said the debate on licensing has to start somewhere.
"I'm trying to stick my toe in the water and see if I get bit by a piranha," Allen said.
I think it is a good time to be a piranha.

Quote:
"Mandatory education is one thing," said Chris Edmonston, director of boating safety for the Boat Owners Association of the United Stated (BoatU.S.). "We're not opposed to having people take a course. But we wouldn't want to see it turn into a license that could be restricted or taken away."
A dangerous precident. It is OK to get this started, but the details are not agreable yet? This is one salesman whose foot needs to be chopped off in the door.

Quote:
"Driving a car is considered a privilege conferred by the state, but boating is considered a right," Edmonston said. "It gets back to that 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' sort of thing."
Remember that when they start to call it a privelidge. Actually, I do not recall any mention of boating in the bill of rights. I wonder where this proclaimation came from.
Quote:
The United States already has endured terrorism using small civilian craft, albeit overseas. In 2000, suicide bombers in the port of Aden, Yemen, used an inflatable boat to blow themselves up next to the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 sailors and wounding 39 others.
Let's see, a warship, in a war zone, was attacked by a small vessel (Commercial fishing vessel if I recall). HMMMM?
Quote:
"As good as we get at surveillance, as good as we get at patrolling and creating deterrence out there, sooner or later we're going to have to come to grips with the fact that we need to know to a greater certainty who are operating boats out there, what boats are out there,"
Yes, let's make sure we know EXACTLY who is out there. THeir name, age address... HMMM? I wonder if, like drivers licenses, you will be required to have a physical address to obtain the license? Could be an issue for those who are already cruising?
Quote:
Maryland, for example, has no age restrictions on who can pilot a recreational boat, but in Virginia, which shares the Chesapeake Bay, operators must be at least 14 years old.
So, they are aware of this sort of issue, but will they address it? Or will they simply pass the buck to the state level, and cause us all the headache of trying to determine, as we sail from one state to another, what the rules are?

Quote:
Devising uniform rules and enabling better tracking of boaters will be a priority for the Coast Guard in the coming years, Allen said, along with an appropriate respect for civil rights.
Tracking? What is next, check points and visas while traversing the ICW?
Quote:
"I can understand as we move toward trying to understand what's going on out the water, to improve safety and security, there's a point to which the rights of our citizens need to be prime," Kulp said.
Yea, Right from the start. Amazing how much this comes across as an afterthought.
I am all for safety on the water. I am also for national safety. This ain't it. This is, yet another attempt from someone with a little power, to gain allot of power. There are thousands of laws passed around the country every year. Each and every one takes away something. Educate don't legislate. Make the information more available. Make it something people want. But, this is not even the point. The point was security. To those who would buy into this arguement, I will, at the risk if misquoting Ben Franklin, say, Those who would give up freedom for security, deserve neither.
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Old 01-01-2007, 20:57   #13
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Originally Posted by Harriet
If a license were tied to some evidence of competency to handle a boat, I'd be all for it. Based on what we've seen in South Florida, it sure might get some morons with more horsepower than brains off the water.
Keeping in mind that the costs to you will come both in terms of time and money, how much are you willing to pay for this?

Of course, everybody is for laws that limit the other guy. But it will be politically unacceptable if the license is too hard to get, so the bozos will be able to get a license too. I think I'll have to spend my time and money to get a license, but it won't have much effect on the behaviour of other boaters.
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Old 01-01-2007, 23:12   #14
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Thank you Ed!

http://www.stateline.org/live/detail...ntentId=165344

A lot of this stuff started years ago, it just wasn't the Coast Guard. Read these links below.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Mandatory Education 92105.pdf (23.4 KB, 127 views)
File Type: pdf Operator Licensing 92105.pdf (126.9 KB, 103 views)
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Old 02-01-2007, 06:30   #15
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Gord: The Canadian license requirement is very similar to the state of NJ's license. It has similar age cutoffs as well.

Incidentally, has anyone else motored through Hell's Gate and the East River lately? Talk about knowing who is on the boat... They have "undercover" boats stationed all over the place. We went through at rush hour and there were boats under each bridge... unmarked, but doing patterns around the bridge and inspecting us *heavily*. I suspect they were aiming various detectors at us as well. You can bet I stuck to the center of the channel!

Also, we had visits 3 times from Blackhawk helicopters coming in for a close look. All that, and we're just a sailboat. I couldn't imagine the scrutiny a power boat would be under. They already restrict anyone from navigating close to any bridge piling or any official place on shore.

Kai Nui: I think that attack on the US warship was carried out with a small inflatable, if I remember correctly. They just zoomed up, blew off a bomb and that was it. Pretty weak on the part of the military to not have someone on constant watch.

I see the licensing thing as having nothing at all to do with boater safety, although they will claim that if it ever starts to take effect. It's just yet another lost freedom. At least as Chuck says... this country will be a bankrupt United States of Mexerica in the next 10-20 years so we won't have to worry as much about enforcement.
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