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Old 06-01-2007, 20:53   #76
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catmando-
Actually, it isn't surprising anything from a nation state so much bigger than Oz, would be bigger than something from Oz. Heck, New York and Texas have their own naval forces too!
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Old 06-01-2007, 21:29   #77
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Totally understand how a country like U.S has a bigger fleet than OZ.

But I still reckon we need better than this.

Coast Guard Brisbane QF2



Location
Manly Boat Harbour, Brisbane
2727'S 15311'E

Hours of operation

0600 to 1800, Weekends and Public Holidays.
Night Monitors Friday and Sunday 1800 to 2200.
Saturday 1800 to 2400.
Weekdays 0600 to 21:30 by VKQ 447 - Moreton Bay Trailer Boat Club

Base Numbers
Phone: (07) 3396 5911
Fax: (07) 3393-4080
Emergency: 0404 466 000

Call Signs
VMR 402 Coast Guard Brisbane

Frequencies monitored
27.88, 90, 91 MHz
VHF 16, 67, and 73
MF/HF 2182, 2524, 4125
Area served
Point Lookout to Cape Moreton, Southern end of Moreton Bay
from Russel Island north to Comboyuro Point and 50 nm to sea.
Rescue vessels

CG 1

8.3mtr Shark Cat
Power plants - twin 225 hp Yamaha four stroke O/B
Fuel capacity 1000 lts, operational 12 hrs @ 24 knots
Radar/GPS combo system, 27mhz / VHF /mobile phone
Cruise speed 28 knot's

CG 11

10m Off-Shore Aluminium Cat
Power plants - twin 496 Mercruiser Petrol Engines with Bravo 11 X drives.
1200 Litres Fuel Capacity
Speed 38 knots, Cruise 32 knots.
Duration - 10-12 Hours.
Radio equipment - 27mhz, VHF & Mobile Phone.
Onboard Computer Screens with Colour GPS Display in front of Driver and Navigator.
Ambulance Stretcher Capability.Suitable for Extended Search & Rescue Duties with Night Vision Camera.
Storage for Inflatable on Rear Deck.


This is for a very populated area in oz with a lot of traffic.

In more remote areas you get this style of thing

Coast Guard Cape York (SEISIA) QF25

Location
Tumema Street, Seisia
1051' S 14202'E
Hours of operation

0800 to 1800 Seven days per week.

Base Numbers
Ph. 070 - 693030
Fax. 070 - 693030


Call Signs
VMR425 Coast Guard Seisia

Frequencies monitored
27.88 MHz VHF Ch. 16 - 22 - 82 Repeaters MF/HF 2182 - 2524 - 4125
Area served
North to Thursday Island, south west to Skardan River, south east to Shellburne Bay
Rescue vessels

CG 25 Seisia Star

7.6m Aluminium mono hull - 2 x 120 HP Evinrude outboard
Radio equipment - 27MHz & VHF.
Duration 8 Hrs at 25 Knots

Note the hour's of operation.
You would find that this could well be a someone operating from home while trying to juggle house hold duties as well.

If someone need's rescuing they have to get people away from work etc and then get out possibly hundred's of miles in a 24 ft tinny.

If you decide to get into grief after hours, well..............

This a similar scenario in most areas that are not major capitals all around OZ.

Don't get me wrong, the AVCG does a great job with the limited resources provided by the government, I just feel that for a seafaring nation we should have a better settup than this.

Dave

Dont get me wrong
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Old 06-01-2007, 22:25   #78
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Originally Posted by coot
I seem to recall from reports at the time that the guys on watch were authorized to return fire, but not to fire the first shot. That required approval from a senior officer. The attack was fast enough that the chain of command could not respond effectively.

The investigation found that the procedures in place could not have prevented the attack even if everybody implemented the procedures perfectly. In other words, it was not crew negligence that allowed the attack to succeed. They were following orders (rules of engagement) that were not good enough for the circumstances.
The politically correct response to anything nasty seems to be to treat it as a police matter. If someone has not yet committed a distasteful act, then do nothing to impede him, for he may not, in fact, do anything untoward.

However, once a distasteful act has been committed, then use all legal means in an effort to apprehend the perp.
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Old 06-01-2007, 22:56   #79
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Yotphix, can you expand on this? My head's not working well... I'm not sure what you're saying
.


Sure Sean...I think the New Hampshire plate still says "Live Free or Die"! I always wondered why you have to chose though. I plan to live free and THEN die!
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Old 06-01-2007, 23:05   #80
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If the government wants to keep track of anyone who enters the US for security. They should require them to have the AIS & activated on board rather then a license. That would make more since.
Actually, it would not make any sense at all. AIS transmits data that the ship operator wants to transmit, if the ship operator chooses to turn the unit on. Lying with AIS is only trivially more difficult than lying into a microphone, at least for someone with a little technical skill.

To effectively track an adversary, you need to use a mechanism that does not require their cooperation.

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Old 07-01-2007, 00:40   #81
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Well, that's the thing. If you make it a rule that the AIS has to be on within a certain distance of the border, and it's not. Then it's justifcation to hail them over and find out why their AIS wasn't on.

If the guard is out their doing their job and they, OR ANYONE ELSE, see someone crossing over without showing up on the system them it's time for action.

Kind of like driving at night without your headlights. People will keep flipping you the lights. If you see someone on your system and your within range of the border. You hail them by VHF or light and get them to comply. If not, then it's time for ch. 16. A bit like the block watch in your neighborhood.

It's the responsibity of the citizians to watch out for their own. If not, then you get what you deserve!!!!

The other nice thing about the AIS is it's a bit like radar. In the fog or at night near the border you would know if someone was ahead of you.

Just like right now, I know where all the ferries are crossing the sound.

Yours aye!
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Old 07-01-2007, 15:01   #82
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CatManDo- Sometimes a people get the government they've agreed to pay for. I suppose you could try to get boaters to lobby the pols to raise a tax and fund a full-time professional rescue service of some kind...but then again, unless that came from just the pockets of boaters, the general public might just ban boating instead.<G> I guess you'd need to find an interested group, figure out dollars for ongoing operations, see what it would cost to "commercialize" the service, and then see if there was any support from either boaters or the public to do it.
Or try to run it like SeaTow and the other "road club" services in the US run. Anyone can call them, and pay commercial salvage/service rates. But members who prepay every year, get a major break and some services free. Then it's just a matter of scale to see what can be done. Might be a good business opportunity in it. Or not.<G> Dunno about economics and mindset down there, from what I've heard "more government and more taxes" wouldn't be popular.


Bilgerat, AIS is no panacea. There was a big article in the NYTimes last week about the way Miami was chosen as a test site for a major new USCG traffic control and tracking system, and the way the actual results have been miserable compared to what was expected. In practice, there are just too many targets, too many problems with electronics, too much confusion between small craft and wave echos...A while litany of reasons why controlling a busy wet border just isn't easy, even with high tec toys.

"Efforts by Coast Guard For Security Fall Short
By ERIC LIPTON
Published: December 30, 2006
A Coast Guard plan to combat terrorism by creating the maritime equivalent of an air traffic control system in the coastal waters here, a test for a nationwide effort, has fallen far short of expectations.
The Coast Guard installed long-range surveillance cameras, coastal radar and devices that automatically identify approaching vessels to help search out possible threats.
But the radar, it turns out, confuses waves with boats. The cameras cover just a sliver of the harbor and coasts. And only a small fraction of vessels can be identified automatically."

Full article at The New York Times > Log In but you'll need to be a TimesSelect member or paid subscriber to access it.
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Old 07-01-2007, 15:19   #83
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AIS on every boat? Well, the Pardey's don't do that much US cruising any more. There are still a few of us lacking a 5KW genset to run all the electronic BS. The basic survuval stuff needed to cruise safely is already an impact to keep powerwed. Add more?
Worst part is the general public would be easy to sel on that idea. Just check out any of the late model GM products. Northstar has been sold as a life saver, but no one seems to care that with it, you can be tracked everywhere you drive.
Again, I do not feel safer.
The original issue here is should boaters in the US be imposed upon, yet again, in the name of national security. Simple answer is no. Some imposition in the name of safety, OK, I will go for that. These two are mutually exclusive despite what the Commandant says. Living in a harbor right next to a major power production plant, if I truely believed that terrorists were planning on using small boats to attack key targets, I would relocate.
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Old 07-01-2007, 15:47   #84
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"Northstar" was a variable-valve engine project that proved to be unreliable, you mean OnStar. There's no magic to OnStar, however much GM wants you to believe otherwise. And despite the tv crime shows, there's no record of any of those companies activating the "stolen car" function to track anyone without permission, much less without a warrant. Iif they did that...they could lose their entire market very quickly.
Besides, an OnStar owner can only be tracked if they *want* to be tracked. Or, if they don't know how their car works. There's a GPS antenna, and a cell phone antenna, and if you stick a tin can over each of them (or unplug the fuse) they go neatly dead.
Hollywood ain't real life.<G> In fact, the Batmobile could neer have had OnStar installed in it. Despite the early tv commercials showing that...OnStar is and was only available with the purchase of a new GM product, it has never been available solo to the general public--not even to Batman.<G>
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Old 07-01-2007, 16:06   #85
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I stand corrected about the Onstar thing, but, If you subscribe to the service, you CAN be tracked. Theft recovery is one of the ad campaigns. True, this is voluntary, but how many people consider this side of the option when paying for the service? You are correct in your statement that the market would not stand for being able to be tracked without their knowledge or permission, but how long until apathy changes that?
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Old 07-01-2007, 16:16   #86
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"but how many people consider this side of the option when paying for the service? " Possibly more than you might think. Big Brother has been a known issue in what is now called the "telematics" industry, and AFAIK all the industry players take the same line on it. If it *ever* happens, their business may be gone. Not to mention, if someone tracks you without your permission and without a warrant, the potential for damages is enormous. In this day and age?
Since they aren't telephone carriers, or ISPs, the recent ugly trends in government warrantless operations still have no precedent over them. I think someone would have to convince the vendor that you were Osama's Bride before they'd take that risk. Not impossible--but then again, if you were, you'd have bigger worries.<G>
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Old 07-01-2007, 16:30   #87
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Interesting point. We know the US Auto makers would never collude with the government against the best interest of their customers<G>
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:23   #88
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Originally Posted by BilgeRat
Well, that's the thing. If you make it a rule that the AIS has to be on within a certain distance of the border, and it's not. Then it's justifcation to hail them over and find out why their AIS wasn't on.

If the guard is out their doing their job and they, OR ANYONE ELSE, see someone crossing over without showing up on the system them it's time for action.
There is only one way to know that they don't have their AIS turned on: You detect them by some other means. If you can detect them by some other means, then what do you need the AIS for?

Quote:
The other nice thing about the AIS is it's a bit like radar. In the fog or at night near the border you would know if someone was ahead of you.
There is one important difference: I cannot lie to your radar, but I can lie to your AIS receiver.
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Old 08-01-2007, 01:47   #89
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I cannot lie to your radar, but I can lie to your AIS receiver.
Good point! Although only mostly true. Radar reflectors give much bigger returns than the boats that they are on and the crazy m hull stealth boat down in San Diego looks about like a 40' sailboat on radar even though it is 80' with a 30' beam. Inflatables don't exactly lie to radar, they just refrain from telling the truth ie. you can't see them.
Bad sneaky people will do bad sneaky things regardless of how you watch and regulate honest folks.
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Old 08-01-2007, 19:46   #90
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Bad sneaky people will do bad sneaky things regardless of how you watch and regulate honest folks.

Thank you yotphix. You said it all.
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