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Old 05-01-2007, 13:55   #61
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I got it I got it! Just issue terrorist licences and leave the harmless boaters alone! Lincensing terrorists should make it real easy to keep track of them whether they use boats, planes, buses or riding lawnmowers!
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Old 05-01-2007, 14:11   #62
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Originally Posted by Orwell
If you’re properly educated at the elite schools, you internalize the understanding that there are certain things it wouldn’t do to say. That’s the effect of a "proper education." This doesn’t mean just schools, but the whole system. The higher the education you receive, the more internalized the values are, and this leads to voluntary censorship.
So does this mean the uneducated are open minded? I think not!

People have to be trained in something and when they reach adulthood then they can decide for themselves what they believe. And life's circumstances can affect the out come.

There IS a good & evil in the world. "Evil" DEMANDS the way things should be. "Good" SUGGESTS the way things should be. And then there is the fight. History has shown the good usually prevails. The evil is self-destructive and fails.

So is it good to have a license or is it evil.
It's evil if it's for control of the masses and to suck more $$$ from the public without any noticeable results.
It's good if it provides public safety and regulates the movements of UNWANTED products (explosives, poisons, drugs and illegal immigration).

The final question is; which will it be??? It's up to the public to demand that the system use the license for safety and protection and not as a means to no means. We have to hold the government accountable.

e.g. Here in Washington the state started the lotto under the impression that part of the money would go to schools. WELL, here three years+ and the schools are still crying for $$$$.

So, why hasn't their been a public out cry??? Complacency!!!! They forgot about it. They are too busy trying to become millionaires. GREED!!!
After 9/11 there was a national out cry and now what? It's forgotten! There haven’t been any more attacks.
The politicians take advantage of complacency. Once they get their foot in the door, that's it.

It's up to the PUBLIC to KEEP government accountably and that's not happening!!!!

Quote:
Your system is designed to give you what you are getting!
It’s time for people to get more involved in what the government has said “what they are going to do”. And hold them to their word!!!!! Rather then complain after the door has slammed shut!

Make a license worth something to the public. It’s already in effect in Canada , to an extent. What makes you think it’s NOT going to happen here????? Who controls the Congress now??
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Old 05-01-2007, 14:16   #63
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Sean, does your Aunt ever look at her license plate?
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Old 05-01-2007, 18:53   #64
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Del, at the risk if minimalizing your comment, would it be safe to say, apathy is mans greatest enemy?
Very true we have short memories in the US. Pop culture is a way of life. If it happened 15 minutes ago, it is old news. Everything we need to maintain a strong and successful society was written by the founders of this country. It is when we start interpreting those values, that we get into trouble. It seems we have forgotten why we came here. It IS about greed, but it is more about apathy. NIMBY! If I can not see the result, I do not care! Common, but dangerous concepts.
Using quips from great works to relate the situation trivializes it. We, as Americans, ARE under attack. But from whom? Al Kaida? North Korea? China? Iran? Or maybe, our own government? We do need to take the bull by the horns. Support organizations that promate training, and other ideas that will make boating more palletable to the non boating public. Get that 6 pack license. Take that ASA course. Then, when the powers that be try to use safety as an excuse to enact legislation taking away our freedoms, we, as a group, can point out that the excuse of safety is not a factor. Force them to expose their proposals for what they really are. In-fighting only fuels the fire. Complaining about the "crazy power boaters, that rip through the harbor ignorant to the rules of the road", only feeds the need for more regulation. Instead, take a power boater sailing. When someone violates your right of way, and puts you in irons, say "those are the guys that give power boaters a bad rep". Maybe we, as a group, should take another look on how we respond to news of boats and crews lost. It seems the first thing that happens is discussion on if they had a pfd, or a life raft, or if their MOB pole was painted grey. Instead, wouldn't it be more productive to ask why didn't the safety gear we are sure they had, work for them? Why didn't the boat stay together? Why didn't they know about the weather? Everytime we condemn the actions of another boater after a tragedy, the powers that be think up another law to keep anyone else from having the ability to make the same mistake.
I was very involved in fighting the helmet law in California in the 80's. I will never forget the sound bites from the politicians. "I do not care about the facts" ""They" are costing "us" money" The supposed right of a small group to go out an kill themselves is not a consideration when it costs the tax payers money".
And every time some Bozo with a name, such as Gary Busey, fell down and got hurt, the state politicians would go nuts stating that this is PROOF that riding without a helmet is dangerous. Forget the reason the biker went down. Forget it might have been a drunk in a 4000 pound Cadillac that ran over him.
We fought that battle, and lost. Why? It was too easy to convince people that it was more dangerous to ride without a helmet than to put a 16 year old on a 160mph bike WITH a helmet, and send him off to play with his friends. It was also too easy to convince the general public that this was not going to impact them, and if it did, it would only be a benefit.
OK, now I am ranting. I'm done.
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Old 05-01-2007, 21:26   #65
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Apathy & greed is exactly right. You read between the lines. During the helmet law contro I was in Alameda working in a shop called "The house of spokes" making custom wheels for Harley's and I was also against it. One of the reasons I don't ride anymore. Neck problems! Helmets are heavy especially with a 60 MPH wind.

But this license thing is going to happen just like the helmet law whether we like it or not. They are just warming us up to it. So why not get the jump on them and start laying out the do's and don'ts before they can force the BS on us. The big problem is the people that have nothing to do with boats (politicians) are going to be the ones implementing the works.
Quote:
It was also too easy to convince the general public that this was not going to impact them, and if it did, it would only be a benefit.

What we need is a watchdog out there reporting on every action that is taken towards the license movement and make sure it doesn't impede on our liberties. It's bad enough that the anchorages are disappearing.

Believe me, I know about the "powers to be" We just had a guy in the shop cut his hand, bad, with a band saw. The safety super wanted to get rid of the saw. We just about had a war here. I had to explain what "assumption of risk" was and how it is a day event in machine shops.

I think we’re on the same wave length but the mic is a bit scratchy. As like everything else a license, or what ever they call it, is inevitable.

Oh! And I've tried taking out power boaters and their reply is "it's too boring" or "too scary". Not all, but most! (Not you Rick!) ................................._/)
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Old 05-01-2007, 21:31   #66
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Del-
"After 9/11 there was a national out cry and now what? It's forgotten! There haven’t been any more attacks."
Well, perhaps not in the US. But there have been some incidents, very much underreported and not covered in the popular Nooze at all. A number of them on airliners, including small groups of men being arrested, and at least one man arrested after being caught trying to remove the mirror from a forward lavatory in order to gain cockpit access. (The details were withheld, but AFAIK only some 747's and Airbus models have that configuration.)
"Stuff" is still going in, remember the explosives confiscated from a car on a ferry in Seattle? (Or something close to that.) And then, the train bombings in Spain and the tube bombings in London. Arguably each more effective than another attack on the US.
The bad guys are still out there. The main difference being--they have the patience to wage a *long* campaign, a hundred years, a thousands years. As far as they are concerned, the battle today is part of the Crusades and re-establishing the Caliphate, a fairly long time span.
Here in the US...we run like ants stirred with a stick, having no idea of the real cause, no attention to the real solution, and in a few years, when and if we calm down or get tired, it will be much simple and more effective to hit us again. They may be crazy, but in some ways they know what they are doing. Sadly more so than our own "fearless leaders". (Referring to Rocky & Bullwinkle by that.)
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Old 05-01-2007, 21:50   #67
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You are right! This is just a continuation of the Crusades. But a License will not stop them. But we can't stop the license either if we all are in "apathy".

"For the people, By the people and Of the people" (not in that order???) That is what this country IS suppose to be about.

Not: by the government and for the government. Self serving (modus operandi)
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Old 05-01-2007, 23:47   #68
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Del, I think we may have met As for "It's going to happen", maybe so, but just like the helmet law, and a number of other bad ideas that have been jammed down our throats, it ain't over till it's over.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone feel safer flying now than you did 3 years ago? It seems to me that regulations such as not allowing any food on the plane, but allowing it in the checked luggage, then allowing cell phones on the plane seems a bit silly. What, a cell phone can't be a detonator? It won't tranmit through an airplane bulkhead? Just another piece of fine regulation that is disquised to "protect us", yet really accomplishes nothing of the sort. As long as people let it happen in the name of feeling safer, these rediculous regulations will keep getting worse.
A few months ago, I had to fly back east. There is a brand of peanut butter I can only get out there, and always stock up with a couple of jars when I go out. As it was a day trip, I was packed light. Breif case only, so I couldn't check the bag. They took my peanut butter. Sealed jars, in the grocery bag, with the receipt. (Bastards) Of course, since the "security was there in force, I couldn't get visibly angry (wouldn't want to go to jail over peanut butter). I asked for a receipt for the seized items. Against their policy. So, a receipt for confiscated items is unreasonable to ask for? What a bunch of crap. I hated flying when it was easy. Now... And all of this in the name of national security. Do I feel safer. Hell no. I didn't react to my food being taken away with no reasonable justification because I feared the officials taking it from me.Representitives of the federal government.
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Old 06-01-2007, 06:59   #69
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Had a bit of a wade through these post's and was wondering,
is it just a written test for the license or do they actually test your skills in a boat?

We been pushed into a similar thing in OZ, power boaters have always been licensed, for boats over a certain speed, so slow bay cruiser types didn't need one but small and large go fast did.

Fair enough

Now Slow Cruiser's and yachts are required to have a license.

We get written and on water test, but in a 12 ft tinny, which is a bit of a joke 'cause that ain't nothin like a yacht, sailing cat or my 50 ft powercat.

Oh, and my 30,000 miles counts for nothing, I still have to show 'em I can pick up a lifejacket in a dinghy.

In our part of the world it is purely a name on list and money making venture.

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Old 06-01-2007, 09:04   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do
Had a bit of a wade through these post's and was wondering,
is it just a written test for the license or do they actually test your skills in a boat?
The Pleasure Craft Operator Card here in Canada involves taking a course and writing a test. There is no process currently in place that tests your true ability on the water. Book smarts vs. practical smarts is flawed, but, IMHO better than nothing. Learning safe boating is at least a start.
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Oh, and my 30,000 miles counts for nothing
It is the same way here. Members of Coast Guard or the Canadian Navy, for example, do not get a free pass, regardless of time served at sea. (I believe licenced Captains do, though.) This has raised the ire of many sailors here, since they led the lobby to start a safe boating programme.

There are 3 criteria for having to obtain and operator's card. Age, the size of motor (engine) on the vessel and the length of the vessel. Anyone born after April 1, 1983 and all operators of a vessel under 4 meters in length must currently have their Pleasure Craft Operator Card. All other operators of Pleasure craft used for recreational purposes must have their cards by Sept. 15, 2009. The age restrictions are that no one under 12 years of age can operate a vessel with a enfine 7.5 KW or 10 HP and no one under the age of 16 can operate a vesel with an engine 30 KW or 40 HP, including a PWC. If your vessel is not equipped with an engine then you do not need an operators card.

There is no renewal on these cards, so once you have been issued one, you do not have to continuously show competency. In some ways this is a flaw. In the early years of this system, the marinas and boat stores that sold PWC were giving the cards away to anyone that purchased one. I clearly remember Rick and I being at a marina to look at a boat and him admiring a Seadoo. Rick mentioned that he would have to get his Operators Card first and the salesman told him not to worry, they would issue him the card when he bought it. They exchanged business cards and the look on the saleman's face was priceless when he read "Coast Guard" (CCG was running the safe boating programme at the time) Since then the system has tightened and it is not so easy to get a card, but how many people are out there who simply bought their cards?

The other problem is enforcement. It is spotty at best, but I guess it is like driving a car...you could go months or even years driving without a licence without being caught, so long as you more or less follow the rules.

As a final note, Rick and I are registering next Wednesday to take our course and write the test for our cards. Total cost $100.00 for both of us. Seems pretty reasonable to me....

Lori
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:30   #71
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Lori or Dave, not sure if you can answer this, but what happens regarding vessles from out of the country who spend extended periods cruising in your waters? Is there some point where these vessels are required to get a license? AND, if these same vessels routinely let their 10 yearold kids stand a day watch, will they be cited by the Coast Guard?
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Old 06-01-2007, 16:00   #72
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If the government wants to keep track of anyone who enters the US for security. They should require them to have the AIS & activated on board rather then a license. That would make more since.

Yours aye!
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Old 06-01-2007, 16:12   #73
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Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Lori or Dave, not sure if you can answer this, but what happens regarding vessles from out of the country who spend extended periods cruising in your waters? Is there some point where these vessels are required to get a license? AND, if these same vessels routinely let their 10 yearold kids stand a day watch, will they be cited by the Coast Guard?
Hi Kai, in OZ we dont have a CG like your's. USCG is almost bigger than our navy.

Our CG is a volunteer organization with the magority of funding coming from donations and selling raffle ticket's and I'm always amazed at how good a job they perform with so little government backing.

So they only go out if actually involved in a rescue, and hold no real power to check anything.

Thats left to the water police and the Dept. of Transport and any other pissy little authority who feels he can harass you on the day.

Which is why we go a bit more remote, these guy's don't like to be far away from their nice lunch and safe mooring.

But in answer to your question, I think overseas visitors are fine in that respect, after all we get illegal fisherman and immigrant's come into our waters regularly and I don't believe thay ever get asked for a license.

Dave
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Old 06-01-2007, 16:53   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai Nui
Lori or Dave, not sure if you can answer this, but what happens regarding vessles from out of the country who spend extended periods cruising in your waters? Is there some point where these vessels are required to get a license? AND, if these same vessels routinely let their 10 yearold kids stand a day watch, will they be cited by the Coast Guard?
Basically, it depends on length of stay. If you are in Canada more than 45 days, you must be abel to demonstrate competency. If you are in Canada less than 45 days you must show proof of residence inn another country. This is assuming you are in a foreign registered boat. If it is a Canadian registered boat (rented, chartered or otherwise) you must have your safe boating card.

The rules for children under the age of 12 says they can operate a essel with an engine up to 10 HP without direct supervision, or if the engine has more than 10 HP they must be directly supervised by someone over the age of 16 years.

You can read more at Office of Boating Safety

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Old 06-01-2007, 17:39   #75
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Sean, does your Aunt ever look at her license plate?
Yotphix, can you expand on this? My head's not working well... I'm not sure what you're saying.

Also, I think Del hits it right on. It's the people here who just don't have the fight to stand up anymore. Somehow, our society has lost its spark and is simply adrift. Those folks overseas who wish us harm have quite a fire burning and just like was mentioned above, are simply continuing a long campaign against crusaders and imperialists. It'll be a tough road.

Gord: I was going to disagree, but I think I mis-read your post. I assume you are speaking toward gun use, rather than firearm ownership. Firearm ownership is still a liberty for most citizens. The individual responsibility is to use this liberty wisely. I assume you mean that the "bad Americans" (as in the ones open firing in the mall) had the freedom, but lacked the individual responsibility? I'll agree with you that individual responsibiltiy has been sorely lacking these days. However, I think it's more of a Western World thing than an American thing.
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