Interesting read from one of our fellow female sailors.....

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

Except that many seemed to become upset by the derogatory term "old white guys" that she used. Clearly there are some elderly Caucasian gentlemen that prefer she not use the terminology that she chose.

Actually im a middle aged white guy and it certainly didnt upset me. My point was the op was being prejustice and didnt even realise it, this while complaining about a guy being prejustice.

Also its ok to smash a guy publically without him being able to defend himself?

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[BlueSlue]

Originally Posted by boatman61

So whats he supposed to do..??
Do a Hillary and hire some black actors and actresses to pose artistically on his boat.. if the shots he has are only of his customers (consented) and they happen to be old white honkies like me it makes him a racist..????
You seriously sound like your suggesting he hides any coloured clients..

signed.. Ungraceful.

Boaty, you missed the point of my post, which is to NOT tell him what he is supposed to do based on perceived racism/sexism from his marketing materials, but rather to question further and not make assumptions. I am not at all suggesting he is racist. Quite the opposite, I am saying to give him the benefit of the doubt. You could very be right that his photos are all of actual clients and they all happen to be white. There's no way to know that without actually talking to the guy about it.

But, I'm also saying I think it's generally good business to project an image of inclusiveness. He is free to do that or not do that in whatever way he chooses.

So head-slap right back at you, my friend.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Boaty, you missed the point of my post, which is to NOT tell him what he is supposed to do based on perceived racism/sexism from his marketing materials, but rather to question further and not make assumptions. I am not at all suggesting he is racist. Quite the opposite, I am saying to give him the benefit of the doubt. You could very be right that his photos are all of actual clients and they all happen to be white. There's no way to know that without actually talking to the guy about it.

But, I'm also saying I think it's generally good business to project an image of inclusiveness. He is free to do that or not do that in whatever way he chooses.

So head-slap right back at you, my friend.

Well.. slap me round the head with a soggy cod..!!
I stand corrected..

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Boaty, you missed the point of my post, which is to NOT tell him what he is supposed to do based on perceived racism/sexism from his marketing materials, but rather to question further and not make assumptions. I am not at all suggesting he is racist. Quite the opposite, I am saying to give him the benefit of the doubt. You could very be right that his photos are all of actual clients and they all happen to be white. There's no way to know that without actually talking to the guy about it.

But, I'm also saying I think it's generally good business to project an image of inclusiveness. He is free to do that or not do that in whatever way he chooses.

So head-slap right back at you, my friend.

Good business is targeting your market, the majority that spend money on your product, dont waste valuable funds on the part of the market that is unlikely to spend in your direction. Its about undertstanding postioning, the mind of the consumer.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Racism and sexism still do exist and ways to handle those situations more gracefully also exist.

I think the OP (the blogger) makes a valid point that looking for ways to expand the boating market by making it more welcoming to a more diverse population is good for boating and good for business. However, she essentially accused him of being sexist and racist based on lack of eye contact with her and marketing materials and then proceeded to give him suggestions on how to run his business. It’s not surprising that he got defensive. On the other hand yelling the f-word at her is a pretty poor response.

As a women, I have been frustrated many times by salesmen, contractors, technical reps, etc. giving me the “little woman” treatment, so I understand where she is coming from on this. However, she said that when she felt like he was ignoring her she started looking at brochures. How the heck was he supposed to know she was equally interested in the product, then? The reality is that most women who he sees at boat shows are probably not as interested in the product as the men they are with. People, rightly or wrongly, make assumptions based on their past experiences. If she had approached him on her own or had explicitly stated that she was interested in the product for herself and he still ignored her or was condescending to her, then a claim of sexism would be justified.

I do find it disappointing that there are only white people depicted that on the website for the product. It does suggest that the business is out of touch with modern society in the U.S., which in turn suggests that the product does not live up to its potential as the OP points out in her blog. Including some images of people of color has no downside and has the upside of making the business project the image of being welcoming to all potential customers. And hopefully the business actually is welcoming to a diverse set of customers.

I think a better approach in these situations is to ask some questions (in a pleasant manner) along the lines of, “Do you think black people (or whoever) will succeed with this course?” or “Is this product designed specifically for men?” or “Do you think women feel welcome to participate in this course?” If the rep is surprised at that line of questioning, then you have an opening to explain why you might have a certain perception. If the rep says something that indicates there is a bias, then you know what kind of people you are dealing with and can choose to spend your money elsewhere.

Ranting and making generalizations about old white men as the OP did is unfair and unhelpful. It hardens hearts rather than opening them. Claiming sexism and racism don’t exist, aren’t harmful, or are somehow the victim’s fault shows ignorance and small-mindedness. Neither path helps makes the world a better place.

If you click on the videos, you'll find plenty of gender and racial diversity in the actual curriculum materials. The one video I clicked featured a white male, an Asian female and what appeared to be an Indian or Pakistani female.

It actually makes my skin crawl to have to take a gender/ethnic tally like that. At the end of the day, we're all people, and I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when nobody pays any attention to anyone's nationality, gender or skin color and simply judges each individual on their own merits.

I understand that people want to feel included in all fields of endeavor, but I've never ONCE, ever felt demeaned or excluded by a brochure or picture. Whatever happened to parents??? Don't they still tell their kids they can be anything they have the drive and aptitude for? Don't they tell their kids, "YOU could be the first black Harvard graduate with a law degree, a lineman for the Raiders with a PhD in neurology and microbiology!" Somebody has to be the first...

I distinctly remember my mom telling me I could be anything I wanted except for POTUS, because I wasn't a Natural Born Citizen. She followed up with, "Don't let anyone tell you what you can't do, just apply yourself, give 100% effort to studying and you'll achieve your goals."

What do they do now? "Here, look at these brochures and if you see someone that looks exactly like you, maybe you can do that, too! But if they don't look like you, you can't do it!"


How about all of you? Were you encouraged or discouraged from getting into boating based on the gender or racial makeup of a brochure or advertising materials? Would anyone actually admit to being that simple minded or shallow?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

I'd like to point out the blogger did not demand to the business man that he change anything. Just as you didn't. She also simply shared her experience on line, from her perspective. Just as you just did.

Of course she didn't "demand", she couldn't. But she is attempting to pressure him nevertheless:

"Next time you make a run of these, you may want to consider including a more diverse group of people, especially people of color.”
and
"I also encourage you, if you’re at the boat show this weekend, to drop by and suggest he include more women and people of color in his marketing. I"

[BlueSlue]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Good business is targeting your market, the majority that spend money on your product, dont waste valuable funds on the part of the market that is unlikely to spend in your direction. Its about undertstanding postioning, the mind of the consumer.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for explaining that to me. I must have missed the day in business school when they explained that images of females and colored people have negative ROI. Now I realize how uppity it was of me to think that any female or colored person could potentially be a customer or that a market could be expanded.

[landlockedsquid]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

Finally.

Someone who gets it. I'm so tired of the gender and race card, it's so played out. We're only hearing one side of the story, and most people are ready to hang the guy as a misogynist racist selling an inferior product - why? Suddenly his product is crap because he didn't look her in the eye? Did she ask questions? The only way the seller knew her husband was a potential buyer was because he walked up and asked questions. If she hung back and didn't say anything, why should he risk angering the husband by paying attention to the wife when she's not involving herself in the convo?

Just because his materials don't show a rainbow of people and the precise number of females required to pass muster? What's next? Let's pass laws so the CG must board every vessel and ensure there are the correct number of people of every ethnic group represented or the captain of the boat will be fined in violation of the "Rainbow Boating Law."




How about basing the merits of the salesman on his knowledge of the product, and the quality of the product on just how comprehensive and easy to learn it's materials are? THAT seems a logical criteria for basing one's decision. Not some arbitrary requirement to include pictures of an Ethiopian right next to an Inuit on the deck of the boat. That fake crap is sooooo annoying!

Political correctness is STILL running amok!

Not sure why this thread ran 2 pages past this post. Was it every member quoting it and agreeing? Cause thats the only reason I can thin why people are still posting.
Or are we trading recipes now? I dunno I didn't read 1 post past this one.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by BlueSlue

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for explaining that to me. I must have missed the day in business school when they explained that images of females and colored people have negative ROI. Now I realize how uppity it was of me to think that any female or colored person could potentially be a customer or that a market could be expanded.

Do you honestly believe a black couple is going to buy a cruising boat and sail around the world simply because they saw images of a black guy on a brochure at a boat show? How do you get them to show up at the boat show? Advertise in magazines that target them? Doesn't that seem a little, I dunno...

manipulative? Contrived? Coercive?

I always thought the call of the sea was a deeply personal message to one's soul, almost like the siren sound of mermaids calling one to buy a boat and dump all of their money into the hole in the water.

I must be the only person on the entire planet who is impervious to advertising. Or at least that's how it seems.

[GoingWalkabout]

[QUOTE=tdominic_97;2230655]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

Perhaps I should have gone into the salon and demanded that they have a more representative display of photographic models. Telling them, don't you know that there are a lot of white women looking for blond hair treatment. I am sure if I had dared say anything like that I would have been yelled at, cursed and told to get my skinny white a..... out, you mother .......... white b.........


I have only encountered a few black beauty salon workers, each time I was more than happy with their polite actions, attitudes and haircuts. Have you experienced this behavior? Or are you painting with a broad racist brush?

Your polite hairdresser would not be so polite if you went in with attitude shooting your mouth off.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I must be the only person on the entire planet who is impervious to advertising. Or at least that's how it seems.

No your not the only one.
Posted by a cynical old bastard far far away.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by decktapper

Thank you Going Walkabout !!!! If the rest of the people in the world were half as intelligent as you the world would be a better place.

Thank you for that compliment decktapper.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by landlockedsquid

Not sure why this thread ran 2 pages past this post. Was it every member quoting it and agreeing?

No we still have a clear dichotomy between the PC crowd and the rationalists.

Years of brain washing takes a lot of de-programming

[Three Sisters]

"white, CEO-level dude bro"
"old white guys"

Lol

The author has covered alot of ground with these labels.

One thing about old white guys, two actually. Lol

Never use the term "old white guys"

1. When they sign your paycheck

2. Until after they have picked up the tab

[Three Sisters]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

It actually makes my skin crawl to have to take a gender/ethnic tally like that. At the end of the day, we're all people, and I'm eagerly looking forward to the day when nobody pays any attention to anyone's nationality, gender or skin color and simply judges each individual on their own merits.

I had to take this from your post. It's like my Dad were right in the room.