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Old 12-01-2018, 12:21   #16
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

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Originally Posted by sailscubasurf View Post
I'm an American citizen with a USCG 100 ton near coastal license. Will I need to get an ICC if I want to cruise Europe?
No, not in coastal waters... but inland you are definitely going to need an inland certification, weather CEVNI or an equivalent, if such thing exists (I don't have a clue). There's a big portion of the river Rhyne that even requires it's own license.
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Old 12-01-2018, 13:06   #17
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

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I am a US citizen residing in Germany. Just to learn the various buoys and signage used in the canals of Holland and Germany, I took a course and obtained a Sportbootführerschein Binnen which I have been told also qualifies as an ICC, even though in Germany the license is valid only in rivers and lakes.

Being a US citizen, I am not required by the US to have a license and the Europeans have to accept that fact.

I did pay VAT to the Dutch and obtained a Post Construction Assement survey and got the 1973 Pearson 36 rated RCD "A".

Where does all this bureaucracy come from anyway?
I believe you got a couple of things not quite right. If memory serves the Sportbootführerschein See is the one which includes an ICC. The Binnen being the license for inland waters has the CEVNI endorsement so it is recognized in countries requiring such for their inland waters etc.

If the SBF Binnen was equivalent to an ICC that would be a loophole since you could then sail a vessel in coastal waters in other countries when your license at home is for inland waters.

That part about the Europeans having to accept that as a US citizen you are free to sail without a license is really not so and not that simple. It depends mostly on the flag of the vessel you would be sailing and which country you are talking about. If you are a resident of Germany and have lived there for over a year you will have to get the German license. It doesn’t matter if you are American or Chinese. If you are cruising in Spain, the license they require at least according to the law is the one from your country of nationality regardless of flag. If you don’t need one in the US then yes you can sail anything in Spain without a license.

So it varies according to the situation and country in Europe. There is no „the Europeans have to accept that“

Now what might work out in your favour or against it depending on your luck is that it is not rare for officials themselves to not know the minutia of the law of their own country.. but mostly nobody cares and it is rare that someone asks to see your license in my own personal experience.
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Old 12-01-2018, 13:22   #18
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

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Originally Posted by George DuBose View Post
I am a US citizen residing in Germany. Just to learn the various buoys and signage used in the canals of Holland and Germany, I took a course and obtained a Sportbootführerschein Binnen which I have been told also qualifies as an ICC, even though in Germany the license is valid only in rivers and lakes.

Being a US citizen, I am not required by the US to have a license and the Europeans have to accept that fact.

I did pay VAT to the Dutch and obtained a Post Construction Assement survey and got the 1973 Pearson 36 rated RCD "A".

Where does all this bureaucracy come from anyway?
Other countries do not indeed have to accept the fact that Americans aren't required to have licenses. That's a myth. A majority of Mediterranean countries require some kind of license no matter where you come from. And just about every charterer in whatever European country will require an ICC or other qualification.

The good news is that Americans are fully entitled to get the ICC in the UK, since the U.S. is not a treaty party.

You will probably not have any problems in Northern European countries in your own (presumably U.S. flagged?) boat, as most of them don't require any license themselves, but if you head to the Med (or Atlantic Spain), you would be well advised to do your ICC. An ASA or CG qualification might also do it; you will have to check the requirements for each individual country.
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Old 12-01-2018, 13:48   #19
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

UK flagged boat here in Greece no ICC or equivalent. I went and got my DEKPA (the new type). About a month later a US guy (Dutch flagged boat) went to get his and was refused since he has no ICC. So it's worth having one in these parts.

Talk in the bars is that the charter companies will issue ICCs on the cheap. After all it's in their interest to have someone hire their boats, so long as they have some kind of competency.
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Old 15-01-2018, 12:34   #20
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=George DuBose;2553354]Being a US citizen, I am not required by the US to have a license and the Europeans have to accept that fact. Quote]

I assume this is true of Canadian (or any other) citizenship which does not have a national licencing system?
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Old 15-01-2018, 12:46   #21
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=Divevac;2556119]
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Originally Posted by George DuBose View Post
Being a US citizen, I am not required by the US to have a license and the Europeans have to accept that fact. Quote]

I assume this is true of Canadian (or any other) citizenship which does not have a national licencing system?
Good gracious this has been addressed at least 3 times already in thus thread alone... short answer, no! This is not true as a blank statement. It depends on your country, vessel flag and particular situation (Resident of a given EU country etc).
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Old 16-01-2018, 05:39   #22
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=Divevac;2556119]
Quote:
Originally Posted by George DuBose View Post
Being a US citizen, I am not required by the US to have a license and the Europeans have to accept that fact. Quote]

I assume this is true of Canadian (or any other) citizenship which does not have a national licencing system?
It's not true at all -- every country has the right to prescribe whatever rules it wants for qualifications of skippers of vessels of whatever flag navigating in their waters, other than on innocent passage (which means you don't go into port etc.). And many countries DO require an ICC or some other qualification, if you're going to sail in their waters, whether or not your home country requires any kind of license. Croatia is notoriously strict about it (I have first hand experience with it), Greece has gotten more so -- see the post right before yours), and most other Med countries have some kind of requirement, enforced at present or not.

Short answer, get your ICC!!
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Old 16-01-2018, 05:53   #23
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pirate Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

I do not hold an ICC.. and have never been asked to produce one.. my Coastal Skipper is more than adequate as the only place I get asked for qualifications is.. on the coast..
There also seems to be a general misconception that if one's country does not require a State Certificate of Competence or other evidence of Sail Training they can blithely ignore the rules of any country they visit.
Well.. the United Kingdom does not require any State Certification.. and the RYA is a private organisation all be it an Internationally recognised one yet there have been occasions when Brit boats have been stopped and prevented from proceeding without what the Harbour Master considers a qualified person at the helm..
It just takes one person having a bad day to screw up your plans..


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Old 16-01-2018, 06:01   #24
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
I do not hold an ICC.. and have never been asked to produce one.. my Coastal Skipper is more than adequate as the only place I get asked for qualifications is.. on the coast..
There also seems to be a general misconception that if one's country does not require a State Certificate of Competence or other evidence of Sail Training they can blithely ignore the rules of any country they visit.
Well.. the United Kingdom does not require any State Certification.. and the RYA is a private organisation all be it an Internationally recognised one yet there have been occasions when Brit boats have been stopped and prevented from proceeding without what the Harbour Master considers a qualified person at the helm..
It just takes one person having a bad day to screw up your plans..



Those states which require a qualification do not seem to insist on an ICC. Many of them (maybe all of them; I haven't checked) will take an RYA Coastal Skipper ticket, or an ASA or CG ticket from Americans.

Here is one of a multitude of stories about an American, sailing his own American flagged boat, who ran into expensive trouble in Croatian waters without an ICC:

Croatia Boat Driver's License: Make sure you have your ICC —
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Old 16-01-2018, 06:10   #25
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pirate Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

From the info below I still fail to see why one has to be a UK citizen to get one.. any of the countries signed up to Resolution 40 should be able to issue one.. including the Swiss.

Description of the ICC[edit]
The ICC is a product of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe Inland Water Committee (UN ECE IWC) Resolution 40 (hereafter called Resolution 40).[1] This states that the ICC may be issued by a government of one state to its nationals and residents who may be on the waters of a foreign state, on condition that both accept the requirements and conditions set out in Resolution 40.
Governments may appoint competent authorities to issue ICC on their behalf. Globally International Yacht Training Worldwide (IYT) has been delegated such authority by both Ireland and the UK, and the Royal Yachting Association (RYA)[2] and the British Sub-Aqua Club (BSAC) are both authorized by the UK.
The ICC provides documentary assurance from one government to another that the holder meets the levels of competence laid down in Resolution 40. However, the acceptance of Resolution 40 is often caveated.
History of the ICC[edit]
The origins of the ICC arose from navigation on the Rhine and the Danube (Central Commission for Navigation on the Rhine) and the need for reassurance that vessel operators were competent to ensure safety of navigation and protection of the environment as they moved from one country to another. As a result, on 29 January 1979, the United Nations Working Party on Inland Water Transport adopted Resolution 14, which recommended the introduction of a European document for an International Certificate (International Card) to provide those assurances.[3] The Resolution was also intended to facilitate 'waterborne tourism'. Until then operators could well have been expected to produce competency certificates for each country whose waters they were on.
In the mid-nineties, the Working Group on Inland Water Transport considered that Resolution 14 needed updating and strengthening and on 16 October 1998 the Working Party adopted their revisions as Resolution 40; this replaced Resolution 14.
The International Certificate for Operators of Pleasure Craft created in Resolution 40 is now more commonly referred to as the International Certificate of Competence or simply ICC. The ICC is only applicable where the visited state has also adopted or recognises the ICC as a valid standard of competency.
Application of the ICC[edit]
Resolution 40 not only included operators of pleasure craft bound for or on the inland and coastal waters of foreign states but specifically included bareboat charter vessels. Significantly, it also set out the nautical, regulatory and technical competency requirements to be achieved and a minimum age (16 years of age) for the issue of an ICC irrespective of individual national schemes.
It is the professional opinion of the UNECE IWC that the standards set out in Resolution 40 provide a reasonable and appropriate level of competence for day sailing with due regard to the safety of navigation and crew and the protection of the environment. It is strongly recommended that governments recognise this rather than be drawn into discussions on where the ICC may or may not fit into their own national schemes – much the same as acceptance of the international driving licence.
As of 2013 only 22 countries have adopted either resolution so far, of which 16 are EU member states. In reality many countries choose to accept the ICC even though they have not adopted the resolution – but of course this is on their terms and can be subject to local variations. Spain, Greece and Portugal, for example, have not adopted Resolution 40 but are still most likely to ask visitors for an ICC. In reality, the ICC is more widely accepted as proof of the holder’s competence than adoption of Resolution 40 would suggest.[4]
Implementation of Resolution 40[edit]
The following UNECE member states have adopted Resolution 40 and thus officially accept the ICC as a proof of competence in their territories:[1]
Austria, Belarus, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Finland, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Romania, Slovakia, South Africa (not a member state), Switzerland and the United Kingdom.
Implementation of Resolution 14[edit]
The following UNECE member states have adopted the earlier Resolution 14. Also these countries accept the ICC:[5]
France, Italy and Poland.
States that have not adopted Resolution 40[edit]
The following UNECE member states have not accepted the Resolution 40 nor the Resolution 14:
Greece, Moldova, Portugal, Spain, Russian Federation, Serbia, Sweden, Ukraine and United States.
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Old 17-01-2018, 07:03   #26
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=Dockhead;2556619]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divevac View Post

It's not true at all -- every country has the right to prescribe whatever rules it wants for qualifications of skippers of vessels of whatever flag navigating in their waters, other than on innocent passage (which means you don't go into port etc.). And many countries DO require an ICC or some other qualification, if you're going to sail in their waters, whether or not your home country requires any kind of license. Croatia is notoriously strict about it (I have first hand experience with it), Greece has gotten more so -- see the post right before yours), and most other Med countries have some kind of requirement, enforced at present or not.

Short answer, get your ICC!!
I don't know where you get your information, but I have been cruising extensively in northern Europe for the last 10 years and have met the German Wasserschutzpolizei and immigration, Danish Customs and immigration, English Customs and Immigration, Channel Islands Customs and Immigration and French Customs and Immigration.

Maybe the fact that my boat is US documented has something to do with it, but the Germans once gave me a very hard time about my Orion plastic flare pistol that wasn't and could not be registered in the US or anywhere for that matter and in the end, I was told that because I am a US citizen, the boat is USCG documented, the laws of the US apply.

I do have the German Sportbootführerschein which the Germans say is an ICC equivalent. Nobody ever asked me for that. They only want to see my VAT receipt that I paid to the Dutch and my Post Construction Assessment survey, sometimes they have asked for the radio licenses.
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Old 17-01-2018, 07:17   #27
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=George DuBose;2557315]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

I don't know where you get your information, but I have been cruising extensively in northern Europe for the last 10 years and have met the German Wasserschutzpolizei and immigration, Danish Customs and immigration, English Customs and Immigration, Channel Islands Customs and Immigration and French Customs and Immigration.

Maybe the fact that my boat is US documented has something to do with it, but the Germans once gave me a very hard time about my Orion plastic flare pistol that wasn't and could not be registered in the US or anywhere for that matter and in the end, I was told that because I am a US citizen, the boat is USCG documented, the laws of the US apply.

I do have the German Sportbootführerschein which the Germans say is an ICC equivalent. Nobody ever asked me for that. They only want to see my VAT receipt that I paid to the Dutch and my Post Construction Assessment survey, sometimes they have asked for the radio licenses.
The fact that they didn't ask you for it doesn't mean you don't need one. If you are a resident of germany for more than 12 months you are supposed to meet the local requirements. If you are just passing thru (less than 12 months) then the requirements of your homeland apply. Google it.. for example.

https://www.bootsfuehrerschein.de/fa...schreiben.html

Deutsche Staatsbürger und Ausländer, die sich länger als 12 Monate in Deutschland aufhalten, benötigen einen deutschen Bootsführerschein

(German citizens and foreigners, that remain for more then 12 months in Germany, need a german boating license)

As I said several times.. what the law says and what happens in reality are not always the same thing. I can also attest to never being asked for any of my shiny licenses, not even once. But YMMV.
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Old 17-01-2018, 07:27   #28
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=George DuBose;2557315]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post

I don't know where you get your information, but I have been cruising extensively in northern Europe for the last 10 years and have met the German Wasserschutzpolizei and immigration, Danish Customs and immigration, English Customs and Immigration, Channel Islands Customs and Immigration and French Customs and Immigration.

Maybe the fact that my boat is US documented has something to do with it, but the Germans once gave me a very hard time about my Orion plastic flare pistol that wasn't and could not be registered in the US or anywhere for that matter and in the end, I was told that because I am a US citizen, the boat is USCG documented, the laws of the US apply.

I do have the German Sportbootführerschein which the Germans say is an ICC equivalent. Nobody ever asked me for that. They only want to see my VAT receipt that I paid to the Dutch and my Post Construction Assessment survey, sometimes they have asked for the radio licenses.
Well, my information comes from knowledge of the applicable principles of international law. I'm a lawyer with education and professional experience in this field. Whoever told you that US law applies was not correct. A coastal state might accept U.S. law about qualifications for the skipper of a U.S. flagged vessel as a matter of comity, but like all matters of comity, it's at the option and choice of the coastal state.

Most Northern European countries do not in fact require sailing qualifications from foreign skippers on foreign flagged boats, but that's just their choice. Most Southern European countries DO require qualifications, and some of them enforce it. There is plenty of information about it on Noonsite, and there is excellent concrete guidance on the RYA site.

The RYA "Boating Abroad" section is a good place to start. As it says in the introduction:

"The law of the sea is frequently misunderstood, with many boaters believing that they can go wherever they wish abiding only by the rules of their Flag State (country of registration).

"When you visit another country, in most circumstances (as detailed in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) you can be required to comply with the maritime legislation of the visited country (the Coastal State) in addition to that of your vessel’s Flag State.

"The most common requirement is evidence of competence where this is mandatory for a local boat. Whether this is stipulated in the national legislation, required under local rules or the local port authority making unilateral decisions is often not clear."

"Where evidence of competence is required by the country of registration (the Flag State) pleasure boaters must comply with those regulations. Additionally, when in the waters of another country you must also comply with any requirements of the visited country (the Coastal State). . . "


Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA


This is a precise and correct explanation of the legal situation.
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Old 17-01-2018, 07:35   #29
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Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=crankysailor;2557322]
Quote:
Originally Posted by George DuBose View Post

The fact that they didn't ask you for it doesn't mean you don't need one. If you are a resident of germany for more than 12 months you are supposed to meet the local requirements. If you are just passing thru (less than 12 months) then the requirements of your homeland apply. Google it.. for example.

https://www.bootsfuehrerschein.de/fa...schreiben.html

Deutsche Staatsbürger und Ausländer, die sich länger als 12 Monate in Deutschland aufhalten, benötigen einen deutschen Bootsführerschein

(German citizens and foreigners, that remain for more then 12 months in Germany, need a german boating license)

As I said several times.. what the law says and what happens in reality are not always the same thing. I can also attest to never being asked for any of my shiny licenses, not even once. But YMMV.
Indeed.

I have never in my life been asked for either a radio license or a VAT receipt. That certainly does not mean they are not required!
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Old 17-01-2018, 07:54   #30
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pirate Re: Getting an ICC without British citizenship/residency?

[QUOTE=Dockhead;2557326]
Quote:
Originally Posted by George DuBose View Post

Well, my information comes from knowledge of the applicable principles of international law. I'm a lawyer with education and professional experience in this field. Whoever told you that US law applies was not correct. A coastal state might accept U.S. law about qualifications for the skipper of a U.S. flagged vessel as a matter of comity, but like all matters of comity, it's at the option and choice of the coastal state.

Most Northern European countries do not in fact require sailing qualifications from foreign skippers on foreign flagged boats, but that's just their choice. Most Southern European countries DO require qualifications, and some of them enforce it. There is plenty of information about it on Noonsite, and there is excellent concrete guidance on the RYA site.

The RYA "Boating Abroad" section is a good place to start. As it says in the introduction:

"The law of the sea is frequently misunderstood, with many boaters believing that they can go wherever they wish abiding only by the rules of their Flag State (country of registration).

"When you visit another country, in most circumstances (as detailed in the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) you can be required to comply with the maritime legislation of the visited country (the Coastal State) in addition to that of your vessel’s Flag State.

"The most common requirement is evidence of competence where this is mandatory for a local boat. Whether this is stipulated in the national legislation, required under local rules or the local port authority making unilateral decisions is often not clear."

"Where evidence of competence is required by the country of registration (the Flag State) pleasure boaters must comply with those regulations. Additionally, when in the waters of another country you must also comply with any requirements of the visited country (the Coastal State). . . "


Evidence of Competence Abroad | The ICC and Evidence of Competence Abroad | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | Knowledge & Advice | RYA


This is a precise and correct explanation of the legal situation.
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