ASA or RYA

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Svanen

For cruising purposes, I second LTDsailing's comment that either ASA or RYA should be sufficient.

As a means of communicating your skills for crewing opportunities, my impression is that Day Skipper is more widely recognized and would probably have more impact. That said, it is a pretty basic course completion certificate … at that level, opportunities are more likely to be based more on whatever personal contacts you may have.

Bottom line, it probably doesn't matter a great deal.

Regarding the 'RYA vs IYT' thread hijack, they have their differences but as a practical matter there is really not much to choose between the two.

• the RYA is a British non-profit organization founded 1875, whereas IYT is a Canadian for-profit company founded 1998.
• the RYA allows people with appropriate experience to bypass its training courses and challenge the YM examination, whereas IYT requires candidates to go through its full suite of training courses before being examined. Some people argue that the RYA's flexibility does not ensure sufficient consistency. Others claim that IYT's inflexibility is motivated by its profit-making nature.
• As Tortolasailing said, IYT includes both the STCW Basic Safety course, and its own Professional Practices and Social Responsibility course, as part of its theory package required to gain the MoY Limited. The RYA does not require those courses to gain the YM Offshore, but they are necessary, and available, as 'add-ons' to obtain an MCA commercial endorsement. In practice, the training and ultimate qualifications are identical and should cost essentially the same.
• Both the RYA and IYT derive their ability to issue commercial certificates of competency from the British Maritime and Coastguard Agency, and are considered equal by the MCA.

At the end of the day, you pays your money and makes your choice. I've known approximately the same number of RYA YMs and IYT MoYs, and both systems seem capable of issuing credible professional yachting certificates.

Just a couple of clarifications


The IYT has recognition from the UK DoT for its master of yachts. This was gained despite RYA objections. The RYA has recognition for its YM programme for the DoT also. Commercial endorsement requires not further work other then the submit bet to the DoT of a MED form, which s the sane fir the IYT master of yachts

Neither have any recognitions for other tickets. ( day skipper , etc) there is no need for any recognition as it's. A leisure cert

IYT. Was actually an Irish company ,primarily set up in Florida to offer YM level training to super yacht skippers as a result of MCA manning rules. Much chagrin was had in the RYA when they released they had not copyrighted the YM name and they lost a court case in the USA

Irrespective the RYA is the daddy of the YM programme

For those starting off RYA day skipper is an excellent combined instruction and exam course

I know several irish instructors whose sojourned in Florida when the comps y was setup, it as then purchased by the Canadian company


Given its longevity , I would say RYA is well ahead in recognition stakes over IYT , especially outside the US . Where nobody has heard of IYT.


Dave


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[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Svanen

Hello Cowboy,

As a fellow former Lt(N), I fully agree that the Canadian navy's MARS training program was and is equal to any other navy's, and superior to most … especially in the 'old days' when we had a dedicated training squadron. And - not surprisingly, given the differences in resources - it is/was far superior to the training offered by all civilian yachting organizations..

Ahhhh....a fellow CAD sailor. Been awhile since I heard those acronyms. I am very proud of the training we received while in the service and it comes out wrong when comparing civilian programs to what we received on these forums sometimes. I know it is impossible to find something similar but I seemed to have made it my quest to try and recreate it. Not always easy when you're suffocated with misinformation, marketing and advertisement hype.
My first experience in the private sector was enrolling my 15 yo son into an ASA course. I felt it would be better him hearing from someone other than me. Maybe he would listen for a change. I sat in on the course with him for the 2 days and to make a long story short I was appalled on how it was conducted. I tried again and sent him to 103 and 104 in another school. A better instructor but a syllabus that was all over the place.
I decided to enter the training world again in the private sector as I enjoy it and I researched all the programs. IYT, RYA, ASA and US Sailing. I had no allegiance to any of them. I took the background that I knew, reviewed all the curriculum, and decided upon IYT for a few reasons. Is their syllabus perfect, absolutely not. But I felt it was ahead of the others. Especially on the commercial side of things. It allowed me to add to the curriculum and make it even better. Any instructor can add material and do this in any program asa,rya etc. But many do not.

I don't want to sound like an IYT salesman because I am not. A MARS or J.O.S.T salesman....yes. There is just allot of misinformation about most of the programs and then all the other salesman come out and want to do a forum battle with incorrect information because that's the certificate they hold and its the best just because.

Anyways, great to meet you and maybe we will see each other sometime and I will buy you a dark & dirty Lambs rum.

Cheers;

[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Just a couple of clarifications



Given its longevity , I would say RYA is well ahead in recognition stakes over IYT , especially outside the US . Where nobody has heard of IYT.


Dave


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Dave,

You actually sound quite silly. Research what your talking about, with all do respect.

Schools

Home

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailing Cowboy

Dave,

You actually sound quite silly. Research what your talking about, with all do respect.

Schools

Home

Sorry RYA has been issuing YM certs recognised by the UK DoT since 1976, IYT has been issuing similar certs since 1997. !!!!! The RYA designed and promoted the YM series of certifications all over the world since then

The RYA has exported its YM syllabus all around the world, Where do you think IYT picked it up from, a rock !.

In the leisure space, outside of super yacht captains, mention IYT and RYA and see who has recognition


Dave

[Svanen]

Originally Posted by Sailing Cowboy

I don't want to sound like an IYT salesman because I am not. A MARS or J.O.S.T salesman....yes.

JOST: now there's an acronym from the past, unknown I would think except to Quadra alumni. I take it you were a sea cadet instructor rather than a MARS officer? Still much of the same training, at the elementary level.

I'm not much interested in the IYT vs RYA 'war' … both would do well to cooperate, rather than spend so much energy slagging each other off.

[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Svanen

JOST: now there's an acronym from the past, unknown I would think except to Quadra alumni. I take it you were a sea cadet instructor rather than a MARS officer? Still much of the same training, at the elementary level.

I'm not much interested in the IYT vs RYA 'war' … both would do well to cooperate, rather than spend so much energy slagging each other off.

Yes a Quadra alumni indeed. Tender, YAGS, YDT & flotilla all the way. Loved it. More applicable to what I am doing now than surface to air missiles & frigates re: MARS. Always drooled and loved the mars program though. I have yet to see any training program even in the same league with the depth of knowledge. How about you?

[Svanen]

I did the engineering course at Quadra, and later spent two summers there as a staff cadet. Typically we had two YAGs, a YFNL, YTL 553 Wildwood, and YDT 2, supplemented by a hired civilian boat: initially the old Sea Wave, later the Laurier II. All long gone now, I suppose.

I was one of the very few trainee cadets who managed to evade the dreaded 'jetty jump'. And later as a member of 'flotilla' I was excused involvement with the 'Ceremony of the Flags'.

I had a great time at Quadra but found the cadet world rather artificial and unprofessional. No offence meant, but most of the 'officers' were poorly qualified and undisciplined. Many were often operating well out of their depth … I was not unhappy to move on to the navy. Still there were some good ones and I don't mean to imply that all CIL types were, or are, losers: if it wasn't for them, there would be no Quadra!

[Svanen]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Commercial endorsement requires not further work other then the submission to the DoT of a MED form, which is the same for the IYT master of yachts.

This is incorrect. The MoY tickets do not require commercial endorsement, as the MCA has recognized that all requirements are included in the relevant IYT training package. And the RYA YM tickets require more than a medical (ML5 or ENG1) for commercial endorsement: also needed are completion of the RYA's PPR and sea survival courses. Full information is on the RYA website: see commercial endorsements.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Neither have any recognitions for other tickets ( day skipper, etc.); there is no need for any recognition as it's a leisure cert

Again, incorrect. The RYA Day Skipper practical course completion certificate can used for specified commercial purposes if appropriately endorsed; that also holds true for RYA Advanced Powerboat and the National Powerboat Certificate - Level 2.

With the greatest possible respect, this isn't a subjective topic on which reasonable people may reasonably differ. It's laid down in The Small Commercial Vessel and Pilot Boat Code (MGN 280): see Annex 3 and especially Table 1 - Deck Manning Requirements for Small Vessels in Commercial Use.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Svanen

This is incorrect. The MoY tickets do not require commercial endorsement, as the MCA has recognized that all requirements are included in the relevant IYT training package. And the RYA YM tickets require more than a medical (ML5 or ENG1) for commercial endorsement: also needed are completion of the RYA's PPR and sea survival courses. Full information is on the RYA website: see commercial endorsements.

Again, incorrect. The RYA Day Skipper practical course completion certificate can used for specified commercial purposes if appropriately endorsed; that also holds true for RYA Advanced Powerboat and the National Powerboat Certificate - Level 2.

With the greatest possible respect, this isn't a subjective topic on which reasonable people may reasonably differ. It's laid down in The Small Commercial Vessel and Pilot Boat Code (MGN 280): see Annex 3 and especially Table 1 - Deck Manning Requirements for Small Vessels in Commercial Use.

I'm a former RYA instructor. What you refer to is a concession. The fact remains that RYA day skipper is a leisure certificate designed primarily for leisure training purposes.

It's important to not mix these up with IMO and STCW95 commercial training which has worldwide recognition. In reality YMs and other leisure Certs are primarily using UK recognition for commercial purposes those and other RYA and other , pseudo leisure Certs derive that's commercial status primarily even if not exclusively from that source

Again, what I meant from an RYA perspective is that the underlying principles driving such courses are it's leisure users not commercial.

I've nothing against IYT. I even know one of its early founders, as a purely commercial organisation in my view it operates in a completely different field to the RYA and has different philosophy and purpose.

Again I would contend that ,in the leisure arena , note , I would recommend RYA YM offshore over most other sail orientated ( or power ) certification. It's the daddy of them all after all ( then you might say I would say that )

Cutting selective bits from my posts is hardly useful. It matters little to most aspiring RYA applicants that certain commercial concessions are provided to certain RYA ( and other ) tickets. It's not the primarily purpose of those applicants or those Certs.

Again, the RYA did not set out to design for commercial use, that evolved over time and in fact relates more to the UK DoTs needs then the RYA.

Note that most aspiring candidates for a commercially endorsed RYA YM do the appreciate stcw95 courses , in reality the differences , in that regard between IYT MoY and commercial RYA YM is minuscule.


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[Sailing Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Svanen

I did the engineering course at Quadra, and later spent two summers there as a staff cadet. Typically we had two YAGs, a YFNL, YTL 553 Wildwood, and YDT 2, supplemented by a hired civilian boat: initially the old Sea Wave, later the Laurier II. All long gone now, I suppose.

I was one of the very few trainee cadets who managed to evade the dreaded 'jetty jump'. And later as a member of 'flotilla' I was excused involvement with the 'Ceremony of the Flags'.

I had a great time at Quadra but found the cadet world rather artificial and unprofessional. No offence meant, but most of the 'officers' were poorly qualified and undisciplined. Many were often operating well out of their depth … I was not unhappy to move on to the navy. Still there were some good ones and I don't mean to imply that all CIL types were, or are, losers: if it wasn't for them, there would be no Quadra!

HMCS (ret) Wildwood was a great old girl. We were taking her back from goose spit to Esquimalt one morning in September 0400 when we hit the straits in a Beaufort 6-7 and she was tossed around like a cork. 4 of us onboard. Engineer and XO were seasick and down and the skipper and myself left. First time I was introduced to green water. I was on the helm, the pumps quit and those old wooden decks were leaking like a bastard every time we went under. Not sure if you remember how big the entrance to that wheelhouse was but all I could think about was the 4 of us scrambling to get out should she decide to stay under on one of the dives. It wouldn't have been pretty. The purveyor was also with us at 110 feet in length and she turned around as did we. I will never forget that.
I went through Esquimalt @1991 through 1994. I found most of the instructors were Mars reg force and reservist guys who taught when I was there and really knew there stuff. Officers were on a different program than the cadets who were only at Quadra in the summer. When I was there it was just reg and reservists officers and no cadets. Same with Halifax. We were doing blind navigation (radar only) going through places like Dodds Narrows at slack. I heard some crazy stories about years prior to that but I never experienced the the crappy staff that you did. The only civilian boat was the maple leaf. A schooner I believe @ 70ish feet or so.


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[Svanen]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What you refer to is a concession.

Actually, it's the law. The deck manning requirements are not discretionary.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The fact remains that RYA day skipper is a leisure certificate designed primarily for leisure training purposes.

Agreed. I never said otherwise.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Cutting selective bits from my posts is hardly useful.

With respect, correcting statements that were flat-out wrong may be of assistance to novices who might otherwise have been misled. Not everyone on this forum is knowledgeable or experienced.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It matters little to most aspiring RYA applicants that certain commercial concessions are provided to certain RYA (and other) tickets. It's not the primarily purpose of those applicants or those Certs.

That's fine, but really no excuse for the misinformation previously provided.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Note that most aspiring candidates for a commercially endorsed RYA YM do the appropriate stcw95 courses, in reality the differences in that regard between IYT MoY and commercial RYA YM is minuscule.

Yes, agreed. As already mentioned in post #10 of this thread, “in practice, the training and ultimate qualifications are identical and should cost essentially the same”.

[Looking4Neptune]

I have ASA 101 and will retire this summer and plan to buy a boat to live on full time within a year after that. Not planning on "going commercial" but someday may want the option of taking paying guests.

Looking at the IYT web site IYT web site, I see that most EU countries accept it, but the US does not and I see nothing about Caribbean countries. I would like the option to sail my boat anywhere, but the Caribbean, South Pacific and Med are very high on my list. I could just continue with ASA 103, 104, 105, or go with IYT or RYA. People say that the individual school or instructors make more difference than the system. How is someone supposed to judge the quality BEFORE taking the class?

[John Casey]

Time2Go, if you are going to venture over to Europe at any time, the other advantage of RYA Day Skipper (or beyond) is the direct conversion to an ICC.


https://www.euroweeklynews.com/lifes...-of-competence

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by John Casey

Time2Go, if you are going to venture over to Europe at any time, the other advantage of RYA Day Skipper (or beyond) is the direct conversion to an ICC.


https://www.euroweeklynews.com/lifes...-of-competence

Yes going to the UK for Day Skipper this summer.
Not really relevant to the decision making process
But the cost of traveling to the UK plus the cost of the RYA course
Is less than just the ASA tuition.
Go figure
For me it came down to my thinking that RYA is more internationally
recognized and would be better to have in regards to obtaining crew slots
Anybody gonna need a newly minted Day Skipper in the Med this summer?

[Uricanejack]

There is not much point in debating which is better.

My bias I used to be an instructor.

Any sailing course is better than no course. It covers all the basics in an organised way. where general experience can be very good but does not cover everything.

In reality its the quality of the sailing school its program and instructor's which matter.

The RYA, ASA, CYA just set a standard syllabus for individual schools to follow.

Pick one near where you intend to sail. It will be the best for you.



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