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18-02-2019, 15:49
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,480
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Re: ASA 101 Question
No it cannot. It is unfortunately a common practice, but against ASA policy.
If a sailing school wants to run 101 on a catamaran then do yourself a favor and take 101 somewhere else on an appropriate monohull...and report the school to ASA.
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18-02-2019, 15:58
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#17
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Jacksonville/ out cruising
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 31,351
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Re: ASA 101 Question
What does it matter?
What do you “get” for successful completion of these classes? Cheaper Insurence or something?
When are they required?
If the answer is no, then just look at them as entertainment I guess?
Nothing wrong with paying someone to teach you to sail, but why does it having a class number matter?
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18-02-2019, 21:40
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Lake City MN
Boat: C&C 27 Mk III
Posts: 2,647
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Re: ASA 101 Question
You get the same as any course, exposure to a specific set of material.
__________________
Special knowledge can be a terrible disadvantage if it leads you too far along a path that you cannot explain anymore.
Frank Herbert 'Dune'
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18-02-2019, 22:07
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#19
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Boat: Retired Delivery Capt
Posts: 3,684
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by LubDub
Can anyone clarify what the official ASA stance is ? Can ASA 101 legitimately be taught on a multi-hulled boat eg. a catamaran? Reason for asking is that according to the 101 material this is certification is "learning to skipper a 20' - 27' sloop-rigged keelboat by day, in light to moderate winds and sea conditions." and some of the things they test pertain only to a mono hull. Further, on a recent USVI trip a very excellent and experienced skipper told us that learning 101 on a catamaran is not legit. Thanks.
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Yes you can take 101 on a cat. I have taught it and ASA has given the certification knowing it was done on a cat. BUT that was done when I was still doing charter work. I would not advise someone to do that.
Charter companies are big on “sailing boot camp”. They jam you through 101-104 in 6 days. And they will gladly tack 114 on after that. This model maximizes their profitably.
The way you should learn is to take 101 on the smallest boat possible, this gives you the fastest and cleanest feedback. After 101 go sailing, sail or crew anything you can. Then come back for 103. Go sail some more. Then 104 on a larger (over 40’) boat.
Taking the class separately, with different instructors and on successively larger boats gives you the best learning experience.
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ishmael
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01-04-2019, 11:18
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#20
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Oct 2016
Boat: 51' Beneteau
Posts: 41
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Yes I have taught it on one but it should be taught on a tiller boat than 103 on catamaran
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01-04-2019, 11:51
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#21
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Kansas
Boat: FP Salina 48, Hobie 33
Posts: 407
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor
...and report the school to ASA.
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I'm pretty sure they already know, since water sailing">Blue Water Sailing School has been teaching the 101/103/104/114 courses on a liveaboard catamaran for at least 15 years, and you can find BWSS through the ASA web site. Since a number of ASA schools are also affiliated with charter companies, they're not going to give anyone a hard time about what boat they teach on.
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01-04-2019, 12:02
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,480
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tornadosailing
I'm pretty sure they already know, since Blue Water Sailing School has been teaching the 101/103/104/114 courses on a liveaboard catamaran for at least 15 years, and you can find BWSS through the ASA web site. Since a number of ASA schools are also affiliated with charter companies, they're not going to give anyone a hard time about what boat they teach on.
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Yes, it is unfortunately a common practice, but it should not be. Its bad for the students, ASA, and the industry.
When I ran an ASA affiliated school, I went to a lot of trouble to have small boats available for 101. We often ran combined class which started with 101 and then progressed to classes more appropriate to larger monos/cats.
The practice is common because charter companies make money by chartering boats from their fleet, not my messing with small boats.
But regardless of common practice, it is not the best way to learn.
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04-04-2019, 18:52
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#23
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 142
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor
.....
But regardless of common practice, it is not the best way to learn.
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What makes learning to sail first on a monohull better than a catamaran?
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04-04-2019, 19:07
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#24
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,888
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Wildcats
What makes learning to sail first on a monohull better than a catamaran?
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Feedback!
You need to see and feel the effects when wind angle/strength change and when you adjust sail trim. This is much more apparent on a monohull where weather/lee helm and heel give you immediate feedback.
It is much more difficult for a beginner to "read" a catamaran and trim safely/efficiently, especially on a "condomaran"
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04-04-2019, 19:10
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#25
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Virgin Islands
Boat: PDQ 36, 36'5", previously Leopard 45 cat and Hunter 33 mono
Posts: 1,345
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor
Yes, it is unfortunately a common practice, but it should not be. Its bad for the students, ASA, and the industry.
When I ran an ASA affiliated school, I went to a lot of trouble to have small boats available for 101. We often ran combined class which started with 101 and then progressed to classes more appropriate to larger monos/cats.
The practice is common because charter companies make money by chartering boats from their fleet, not my messing with small boats.
But regardless of common practice, it is not the best way to learn.
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Furthermore,taking all four classes on a cat avoids learning all about heeling, what it it, how it feels, what it means and how to deal with it. If you don't learn this, you are nevertheless certified to do something you have never done and may get very unnerved by. I teach 103,104,105, 106 and 114 on a cat, but never 101. It isn't honest to do so. And Montanan, I would suggest that very few cannot distinguish between a keelboat and a cat.
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04-04-2019, 19:32
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#26
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Boat: MacGregor 26
Posts: 263
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Re: ASA 101 Question
IMO you take the courses for yourself to learn. If you want to learn to sail a cat in a week, spend a week on a cat and sail that. If you want to be a purist and go slow, start on a small monohull. Should drivers have to start with a manual transmission car if they’re only going to be driving automatics?
If the person only uses a cat for training, are they going to g charter a monohull? Who would give them a boat?
Such indignation over things that don’t affect us
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04-04-2019, 20:44
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#27
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,155
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosierdoc
IMO you take the courses for yourself to learn. If you want to learn to sail a cat in a week, spend a week on a cat and sail that. If you want to be a purist and go slow, start on a small monohull. Should drivers have to start with a manual transmission car if they’re only going to be driving automatics?
If the person only uses a cat for training, are they going to g charter a monohull? Who would give them a boat?
Such indignation over things that don’t affect us
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From memory, HooDoc, you are still a pretty inexperienced sailor, and that memory is reinforced by your post quoted above.
The advice from contrail, who is both an experienced sailor AND an experienced sailing instructor is in contrast and very applicable IMO.
Having one's initial training on a smaller mono ain't being a "purist", it is giving yourself the training to become a good sailor... on any sort of small yacht.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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04-04-2019, 21:10
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Boat: MacGregor 26
Posts: 263
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
From memory, HooDoc, you are still a pretty inexperienced sailor, and that memory is reinforced by your post quoted above.
The advice from contrail, who is both an experienced sailor AND an experienced sailing instructor is in contrast and very applicable IMO.
Having one's initial training on a smaller mono ain't being a "purist", it is giving yourself the training to become a good sailor... on any sort of small yacht.
Jim
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But again I ask what is the goal? If you want to be a great sailor, do it the formal way. If you are pressed for time and will be sailing 40’ cats in calm weather, does it really matter?
I’m certainly inexperienced but have been dabbling and sailing for 20 years. Only recently had formal training, on a catamaran liveaboard for 101, go figure
I’ve spent plenty of time on a sunfish though watching wind come at me and being prepared for the gust. My point is not everyone is out to be a good sailor, just a “good enough” sailor.
I would not feel comfortable chartering a 40’ monohull with my training. But I am not sure that I would if I had done 101 on a 20’ monohull either. Getting my boat in the water and getting experience on a friend’s 31’ boat will get me there though.
Excuse me while I put on my survival suit in preparation for the responses.
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04-04-2019, 21:25
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#29
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,155
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Re: ASA 101 Question
Quote:
My point is not everyone is out to be a good sailor, just a “good enough” sailor.
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But Doc, the above is just what most of us DO NOT want littering the water around us.
And while it sounds great, "and will be sailing 40’ cats in calm weather" this idyllic scenario is sometimes punctuated with nasty squalls, etc. "Good enough" suddenly takes on new meaning and parameters. Really, the program you describe reminds me of the quick and dirty "resort certification" dive training offered in some areas. Good money spinners for the schools and resorts (and yacht charterers), not so good for the student who later gets into trouble, thinking he is well trained and knowledgeable.
Nope, I can't buy it.
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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04-04-2019, 21:34
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Indianapolis
Boat: MacGregor 26
Posts: 263
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Re: ASA 101 Question
https://youtu.be/MVL4wKnpx2U
Just don’t scratch my anchor! (I wish I was better st the emotes on my phone for this site)
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