A cheap crash course in sailing so we know what we're doing for the sea trial

[boatman61]

I'll agree with Juho.. if she's floating sail her first.. if you like the feel and performance Then splash out on a Survey.
Saves time and money.

[StuJune]

Great advice. Thanks Juho and Boatman61. We'll have to let everyone know how it went.

[MikeAndMichelle]

I think most people misunderstood our thread. I guess I should have edited the title on this thread to “Looking for low-cost crash-course lessons”. Perhaps I should make a new thread?

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

What you are looking for is a way to gain the needed experience without actually learning to sail.

No, just looking for low-cost lessons. We’ll gain the many years experience after we get the sailboat - we’ll be living on it eventually and we’ll have plenty of time. We’re just looking for lessons.

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

This boat? http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...at-162432.html

The crash course lessons would be for any and all boats in our future.

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Who's coming with you on the sea trail? Will the owner take her / you out?

Probably a friend who has more sailing/sailboat experience than us. And of course the boat owner. But this thread wasn’t about that Rawson 30, just about sailing lessons in general, sorry.

Originally Posted by Macblaze

If you want to wander over to Victoria I will take you for a sail...don't know how much you'll learn though :-)

Thanks, but with the fairies and such, you’re a little too far away.

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

There is no quick crash course. Sailing is hard. You have to earn it.

We were looking for a few lessons over the course of a few weekends.

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

Go to a local yacht club and make some friends, preferably with the race crowd. Crew on some races, and then get somebody who races to go with you.

Well, we hoped one or two people out of the 1000s on this forum might be able to help, but perhaps not.

Originally Posted by markpierce

Sailing is easy. Operating a boat is about ninety-percent of sailing a boat. Sailing has more physical labor than operating a motor boat, but it's no big mystery. Consume a book on "how to sail" and you're ninety-percent capable of sailing effectively. That's been my experience.

We’ve read a few books, we know just about all the terminology, buoys, all the points of sails, about weather, wind, currents, basics on anchoring, pulling in and out of a slip, etc. - and have actually practiced a couple things once or twice. We were just looking for more practice.

Originally Posted by gamayun

Is this an actual sea trial with a boat you've made an offer on or a hypothetical?

Hypothetical. Just sailing lessons. For any boat in the future.

Originally Posted by gamayun

And if it's the latter, then buy a dinghy. There's really nothing better than learning how to sail in a small boat, which tells you almost immediately when you're doing something wrong.

To me, that’s like saying to learn how to drive: Start on a tricycle, then once you’re done with that, sell the tricycle, and buy a bike, then once you’re good with a bike, then get a car, but before the car, make sure you spend $1000 on driving lessons and get 5 years experience of driving and certifications and drive at least 4826 cars before you buy your first.

I get it. That works for some people, and it’s the ideal thing to do - to practice small and move up. But we’d rather just practice on the “car”. We’re trying to get some experience on other boats - this was the point of this thread. We’ll be living on the boat, we’ll have plenty of time to get “good”. We were just looking for some more hands-on experience without paying $1000s.

Originally Posted by gamayun

"Sea trial" is as much going over the systems at the dock as it is about sailing.

Oh yes, we know. When viewing the boat, we try to fire everything up and check, too.

Originally Posted by bluegreen

Hi Mike and Michelle. My wife and I are in a similar position. PM me and we can pool our knowledge and see what we come up with. We are living on our 36' ketch in Richmond that we are building ourselves. lots of people around here to talk too with decades of sailing experience.

Sure

Originally Posted by jrbogie

you are planning to have the boat surveyed with the marine surveyor on board during sea trials, right? please tell me i'm right. nobody can teach anybody how to not look like an idiot?

Of course. But I didn’t even mention a boat in this thread. I’m looking for lessons.

Originally Posted by jrbogie

wondering what a boating license is? a canadian thing?

Pleasure Craft Operator Card in Canada, but instead of “PCOC”, I picked boating license, since it’s often called that here, although it’s not really a “license”.

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

I was hoping you guys might have posted a little more info, tbh, so it's easier to help - still not sure on who'll be there and where in the process you guys are, exactly.

Anyway, in your case, my main focus would be on a survey and finding a trustworthy surveyor to check everything thoroughly, including a haul-out.

We probably won’t get the Rawson 30. We’re just looking for some low-cost lessons in general.

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

Another one of these posts.....sigh. If you do not wish to look like "complete idiots on a sea trail [sic]" (your original words not mine)

Sorrey for the bad speling mistakes n grammer!

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

then don't be complete idiots and skimp on learning how to sail. Frankly, I don't want inexperienced folks out there sailing around as they endanger me, themselves and everyone else.

We wouldn’t be inexperienced if we had these lessons we’re looking for in this thread and live and practice 24/7 on our sailboat as we eventually intend to do.

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

if $50 per hour is over your head than I'd venture a guess that so is owning and maintaining a boat.

Say we wanted a 4-hour lesson every weekend, that’d be $800/month. That’s $150 more than I pay in rent, and $50 less than what I (Mike) make in two weeks. One of us could have taken an actual accredited sailing course for that. That’s not what we’re looking for though. We’re just looking for some hands-on practice. I’m confident that lessons can be had for less than that. We found a couple people on CL who’d give us private lessons for $25/hr/both of us, though - much more manageable. We were just wondering if there was anyone else on CF who’d like to help as well. I hope not every sailor is only okay with helping others just for the money. I told Michelle, when we get a boat, we’re gonna offer private lessons for people at min wage haha! (I’m actually serious.)

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

In all likelihood, unless you are buying a junker or a teeny tiny boat, you are earning somewhere near if not more than $50 per hour to be able to contemplate buying a boat. Many people can buy a boat, but not all of them can afford to actually own a boat.

I wish! I earn $13.50/hr (was doing formwork in Vancouver for $18.50/hr, but screw that job) and Michelle earns $11.25/hr. We have about $15K in savings. We did have almost $15K like a year or so ago but family and personal matters happened and now we have to start over.

In a couple months we should have almost $20K, but $5K of that is reserved for fixing it up, moorage, etc., then rest is for the purchase. My brother is living with us so that’s an additional $300 taken off our rent of $650 (everything included, basement suite). I also build pallet computer desks and chests so I make an additional couple hundred per month, that takes care of phone bills and food. Once we move onto the boat, we’ll be able to hand our apartment over to my brother or whatever and be able to put our combined total of ~$3000/month into paying for the moorage, solar panels, fixing the boat up, saving up to sail around BC/etc long term. Would you like our SIN and bank info as well? lol

Originally Posted by Paul Annapolis

Just wait until you need to hire a rigger ($95 per hour in the states, mechanic or electrician ($100 plus per hour) etc etc etc…

We would eventually learn and do (most) of that ourselves. But like I said above, once we move onto the boat, we’d be able to afford any professionals.

Originally Posted by carlheintz

...Let the owner sail the boat. Bring along someone who knows sailing. I'd be watching the owner to see just how good a sailor he/she is. That gives you a hint as to what kind of maintenance the boat had. Good sailor = probably good on maintaining the important stuff. Bad sailor = novice = probably trouble someplace you haven't seen yet.

When we get a boat, that was the plan.

Originally Posted by carlheintz

Honestly, I wouldn't start sailing on a 30' boat. Takes a lot longer to learn. Buy a little 14' scow or a Catalina 20 or Cal 20. You will have a wonderful time and learn a whole lot more a whole lot quicker. At 30' or more, things take a bit of time to "play out" and you won't see your mistakes immediately, due to the inertia as the result of the heavy keel. On a lighter boat, especially one with a centerboard instead of a keel, things happen instantly and you get great feedback.

We were looking for sailing lessons so we could also practice on a variety of different boats.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

You will not only learn what you like and don't like about the various boats, you will get genuine knowledge about sailing. Book knowledge is a great beginning, but it is no substitute for actual learning.

That’s what this thread was for. For lessons. To practice.

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

They're not asking for anyone to teach them whatever there is to know about sailing ...
They just want to learn enough so the sea trail is useful.

Basically. And we're looking for regular ol' lessons, too - like every weekend for a few weekends or something.

[QUOTE=Dr. Sea;2070422]How can they be ready to buy a boat when they have virtually no experience sailing?
Well, after a few lessons we’ll be more ready. That’s why we’re looking for lessons.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

That isn't even taking into account the extensive refitting work the boat needs. They are on the wrong track and don't even recognize it. I admire their spunk and enthusiasm, but they are nowhere near being ready for a sea trial on any boat.

We probably won’t end up getting that boat; we only made an offer on it. We have more time than money, so we're very patient.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sea

And a boating license is just a recreation tax, no meaningful measurement of one's sailing skills.

No one said it was. I just mentioned that we had one, as we’re legally supposed to have one.

Originally Posted by Terra Nova

Because it is so obvious they are drowning in their inexperience and desperately need a hand so they don't drown.

K.

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Agreed, this would be the wrong boat for most of us. But who knows, it might be the right boat for them. I've tried, like many others, to steer them away from this boat but it's their choice to make.

You shouldn’t have posted that sailboat. Look what you’ve done lol.

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

And who knows, if we help with the sea trail question, they may end up not buying her because they've learned how to make that decision and made it themselves.

I heard BC has some perdy gewd sea trails.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

But the way I originally read it was he was kinda in a hurry and was ready to soon do a trial on this boat. Agreeing with many that he ain't gonna learn sailing very soon, that's why I wrote what I did.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Why didn't I mention...???
Sailing For Dummies
Actually a very good read. And used? CHEAP!

You can actually find that (and many other awesome) (e)books online for free

[boatman61]

Mike&Michelle keep on truckin..

[Juho]

Originally Posted by MikeAndMichelle

Probably a friend who has more sailing/sailboat experience than us.

I have no idea what kind of formal low-cost lessons are available in the Vancouver area (sorry), but I just note that your friend might be one excellent (low-cost) source of experience in the area of sailing. At least to complement what you get from the lessons (and from books and from this mailing list).

Originally Posted by MikeAndMichelle

To me, that’s like saying to learn how to drive: Start on a tricycle, then once you’re done with that, sell the tricycle, and buy a bike, then once you’re good with a bike, then get a car, but before the car, make sure you spend $1000 on driving lessons and get 5 years experience of driving and certifications and drive at least 4826 cars before you buy your first.

I get it. That works for some people, and it’s the ideal thing to do - to practice small and move up. But we’d rather just practice on the “car”. We’re trying to get some experience on other boats - this was the point of this thread. We’ll be living on the boat, we’ll have plenty of time to get “good”. We were just looking for some more hands-on experience without paying $1000s.

I understand that a dinghy could be an extra cost. But I don't think it is a wrong size boat or a tricycle. I would compare sailing with a dinghy to taking lessons on driving on ice (with a full size car). The idea is that if you are able to sail a dinghy well, then you have a good instinct level touch on how wind, sails and the boat work together. That touch will help you also with bigger boats, but it is easier to get these skills with smaller boats.

With a car, it is good to have working instinctive level reactions in good shape when you end up on an icy road with too much speed. I don't think good skills in dinghy sailing are a must, but they are a good additional skill that will help you to understand your big boat too. No harm done if you get the chance to practice also with a dinghy.

[Dave22q]

Originally Posted by StuJune

First time post here. Great information provided so far on this forum.

We are looking to purchase a catamaran and are preparing for all these procedures. I have a question: should you do a haul out before or after your sea trial, or does it matter as long as you do it? Thanks much!

Most sellers will insist on haul out being the last step because haul outs cost and sea trials don't. No way I would spend a couple of hundred on a non serious buyer.

[boatman61]

Actually Juho has it right.. again.
Forget Lasers and all the boys toys crap.. get yourself an Optimist if your smallish/light.. or one of these if normal NA size..
You learn the basic's of sailing and.. when you buy the Big Boat you've got a multi purpose dinghy/tender.

[thomm225]

If you haven't bought that boat yet (or even if you have), you might just rent some sort of small sailboat (with main and jib, sloop rig) at first and play around on a nice day in protected waters where the winds are 10 knots or less. (wear a PFD also!)

Read a short how to sail book or look at a sail position chart and go have fun. If you sail with the wrong Skipper, you could be so bombarded with BS that you will be more confused than anything else afterward

You've already had one poster saying sailing is hard while another is saying it's easy.......

Sail position chart:

https://www.google.com/search?q=a+sa...9cKDEjSpD-M%3A

[TrentePieds]

Mike'n'Michelle:

Why'n't you just cut to the quick? By your own statements on this thread:

1) All you know about sailing you know through reading.

2) You cannot, at least at this time afford a boat of any kind.

3) You live in a location where you cannot keep a small boat on a trailer.

4) You don't have a car to tow a trailer with or to go to see a boat or to take up an offer of a quickie lesson.

5) You can't afford lessons from someone accredited under Ministry of Transport regulations to issue any kind of certificate of competency.

6) You have your "boating license", and while you don't say so, you know as well as I do that that is like having a degree from Trump University: anyone who can shake loose with sixty bux can buy one of those!

I have offered, and I'm offering again, that if you send me a PM with your contact information, we can meet in TrentePieds and get you started. As you may know from things I've said elsewhere I usta be an instructor. That I've let my accreditation lapse is not important in the present context. I'll even go so far, since I live in the far reaches of the Fraser Valley, as to pick you up on the way to the boat since she lies in West Vancouver!

So why are you still buggering about with dozens of posts that can't get you nearer your goal because the people who respond to your posts are too far away from you to be able to help you in any practical sense?

TrentePieds

[boatman61]

I'm curious as well.. it'll prove this ain't another SA wind-up..

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Actually get yourself an Optimist if your smallish/light..

Ohhh, we had one of those way back in the day ... And I bought my kid one when he was big enough to learn to sail, yet small enough to easily fit in one.
I think all the Dutch kids learn to sail in an Optimist

Originally Posted by MikeAndMichelle

No, just looking for low-cost lessons. //
Well, we hoped one or two people out of the 1000s on this forum might be able to help, but perhaps not. // Say we wanted a 4-hour lesson every weekend, that’d be $800/month.//
I hope not every sailor is only okay with helping others just for the money.

I am going to forgive you that last statement, but it's actually pretty offensive.
Most sailors go above and beyond to help fellow sailors.

You're not asking for help with a problem, tho -- you're asking for (nearly) free sailing lessons because you can't afford to take lessons but want to buy a boat (you can't really afford either) anyway.

Also -- help WAS offered. You just didn't bother to contact TrentePieds, which I find a little mind blowing, to be honest. (unless ... SA )

Finally - if you want a 4 hr lesson every weekend but can't afford it, how about one lesson a month? Do what you can afford, contact the people reaching out to you and stop complaining about not being able to afford anything.

You WANT to buy a boat, you don't HAVE to.
You want it all, and you want it now .. AND you want it (almost) free?

I'm a single mom. Managed to raise a kid with Asperger syndrome on my own AND sail a little 22' boat and maintain that too, all on a part time, minimum income, without expecting other people to feel sorry for me hardly being able to afford that luxury (cos really, you don't NEED a boat. I just really WANTED one). I paid for boat costs by cleaning houses and other fun jobs whenever I could free up the time.

And eventhough he's an adult now, legally, I still work by butt off to keep him in school and provide whatever he needs. I keep my boat in good shape and try to make ends meet without asking -let alone almost demanding- free or cheap help from others.

I had to cough up $1800 this month cos it's time to pay the marina again. To me, that's a LOT of money. Maybe I should walk up to the office and ask for a "Woe Is Me" discount? After all, if I want what is hard to afford, others are more or less obliged to help me out, right?

Or maybe I just do what I do now - do whatever it takes to earn the money I need to do what I want. And bite my time. Cos honestly, I'd much rather be anchored somewhere warm and dinghy to shore for tapas then sit in the marina here ...

The point of this rant (sorry) being: most of us work hard, very hard, to afford our boats and be able to sail. I suggest you do the same and accept you simply can't afford 4 x 4 hrs of private lessons (!) every month. Not many people can - you just want too much too soon. Time to get a little more realistic.

[Terra Nova]

Unsubscribed.

[Paul Annapolis]

I'm with Trentepieds and Lizzybelle on this one. The OP would be well served to do some serious rethinking about his/her plans and how they approached the well intentioned folks on CF for advice.

[boatman61]

Don't often agree with Paul..
But I'm kinda with him on this one.. shot yourselves in the foot one might say guys
Good post Lizzy.. I used to do restaurants and clubs and boozing with my mates.. gave it all up when I started owning and sailing my own boats.. upped my cooking skills and drank supermarket beer on board instead of paying way over the odds prices in clubs full of fake smiles and sad lonely eyes..
Oh.. and started rolling my own smokes.. that alone saves me around 8+euro/day these days.
Must confess to the odd Binge now and then when feeling a bit flush..

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Ohhh, we had one of those way back in the day ... And I bought my kid one when he was big enough to learn to sail, yet small enough to easily fit in one.
I think all the Dutch kids learn to sail in an Optimist



I am going to forgive you that last statement, but it's actually pretty offensive.
Most sailors go above and beyond to help fellow sailors.

You're not asking for help with a problem, tho -- you're asking for (nearly) free sailing lessons because you can't afford to take lessons but want to buy a boat (you can't really afford either) anyway.

Also -- help WAS offered. You just didn't bother to contact TrentePieds, which I find a little mind blowing, to be honest. (unless ... SA )

Finally - if you want a 4 hr lesson every weekend but can't afford it, how about one lesson a month? Do what you can afford, contact the people reaching out to you and stop complaining about not being able to afford anything.

You WANT to buy a boat, you don't HAVE to.
You want it all, and you want it now .. AND you want it (almost) free?

I'm a single mom. Managed to raise a kid with Asperger syndrome on my own AND sail a little 22' boat and maintain that too, all on a part time, minimum income, without expecting other people to feel sorry for me hardly being able to afford that luxury (cos really, you don't NEED a boat. I just really WANTED one). I paid for boat costs by cleaning houses and other fun jobs whenever I could free up the time.

And eventhough he's an adult now, legally, I still work by butt off to keep him in school and provide whatever he needs. I keep my boat in good shape and try to make ends meet without asking -let alone almost demanding- free or cheap help from others.

I had to cough up $1800 this month cos it's time to pay the marina again. To me, that's a LOT of money. Maybe I should walk up to the office and ask for a "Woe Is Me" discount? After all, if I want what is hard to afford, others are more or less obliged to help me out, right?

Or maybe I just do what I do now - do whatever it takes to earn the money I need to do what I want. And bite my time. Cos honestly, I'd much rather be anchored somewhere warm and dinghy to shore for tapas then sit in the marina here ...

The point of this rant (sorry) being: most of us work hard, very hard, to afford our boats and be able to sail. I suggest you do the same and accept you simply can't afford 4 x 4 hrs of private lessons (!) every month. Not many people can - you just want too much too soon. Time to get a little more realistic.

Beautiful. I love your posts.