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Old 20-05-2007, 07:03   #16
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Dave - you are in a different class than a displacement powerboat with 2 large engines.
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Old 20-05-2007, 07:20   #17
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If you ban 2 strokes over 9.9 HP because they do not fully combust the fuel in every stroke and then empty that unburned fuel directly into the water they are running in.
Wouldnt you consider banning diesels for doing the same thing to the atmosphere?
I think that we should just ban powerboats, and start offering tax incentives for sailors who convert to electric auxiliary propulsion.
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Old 20-05-2007, 09:00   #18
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Ya know this is really bothering me.
Why is it my responsibility to shoulder the burden of cleaning the planet and sacrificing my way of life when most other countries and citizens arn't doing anything? and why do some peolple insist on guilt tripping everyone into thinking it's their own personal fault?
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Old 20-05-2007, 09:01   #19
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Maxingout - Nice post Dave. Well written and on point.
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Old 20-05-2007, 09:37   #20
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Pat - you don't have to. The world economy is driven by dollars. Corporations will put profits for stockholders ahead of the environment.

There is no need to complain about big boats with twin gas and high gal/hr consumption (not that their life is ours to judge) because, at my marina, they sat at the dock for the last 2 seasons. When the USA starts paying $8/gal for gas as England now does (I think Denmark is $12/gal) people will change their habits and purchase different products. The marketplace will respond and offer more products.

In cars - it already is responding. GM continued to crank out SUVs (I've owned 'em) because they were more profitable than compacts. They slept through a change in the industry and now Toyota is king.

There is a start up company here in Mass that is making a huge investment in solar panels. They expect to make money, not because we will choose green, but because they project that the cost of electricity off the pole is going to increase so drastically over the next 20 years, you will choose to install panels because it will be the less expensive alternative.

Consumers are driven by their wallets. Thats were the motivation comes from. When the cost of being wasteful is higher than the cost of being efficient - we will see change. Meanwhile, enjoy your boat and ignore those that need to judge others for how they choose to play.
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Old 20-05-2007, 10:38   #21
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Between what I pay at the pump and the amount my government taxes me to keep the raw crude available, I'm payiing pretty close to $8 per gallon now. Talk about market failure.

As for my "foot print" I'm burning about three gallons of diesel per year (it is a sailboat after all). I'll put that up against any body's diingy.
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Old 20-05-2007, 10:54   #22
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BTW I am not judging anyone or trolling ....I own a two stroke for the tender and If it goes ...I'll get a 4 stroke.But Im not rushing out to buy a new 4 stroke.I dont imagine the diesel crowd is going to either.It is what it is....dirtier...
I just thought it would make a good discussion.
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Old 20-05-2007, 13:01   #23
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(it is a sailboat after all).
Yeah but...... I guess we also have to include the material sails are made from, how they are made, lines for haylards and sheets as they are all synthetic these days. The manufacture of alloy spars and SST rigging etc etc etc. Just what fuel is burn't at the end of the year is a mute point really.
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Old 20-05-2007, 14:26   #24
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Much as it pains me to say this but the tar sands projects in northern Alberta are huge polluters. And that is just to get the tar out of the ground ready to pipe to the refineries. Not to mention the pollution after the fuel is burned.

I have heard one estimate that it takes more energy in natural gas to extract and refine than is contained in the final product.

I don't have the credentials to verify the above statements but I thought they were worth posting here as food for thought.

I used to fly over Alberta a lot (lived in Edmonton for 17 years) and, from altitude, when they were flaring the sour (poison) gas the gas fields looked almost like cities.

Edit:
http://www.birdday.org/resources/fac...dctarsands.pdf
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Old 20-05-2007, 14:58   #25
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... I have heard one estimate that it takes more energy in natural gas to extract and refine than is contained in the final product.
I don't have the credentials to verify the above statements but I thought they were worth posting here as food for thought ...
Them Albertans must be pretty smart to be able to generate profits, whilst spending $2 to make $1.

Energy Payback Ratio ~ Energy Returned on Energy Invested (EROI)
It takes energy to get energy. In other words, some energy has to be expended in the form of drilling, pumping, refining and transporting oil, for instance, before its energy can be used. The same is true of any energy resource. It follows that if there is no net energy from an energy resource, it is pointless to extract and refine it since this leads to a net loss of energy or at best, no net gain. (An energy source, such as oil, may be valuable for other things such as plastics or petrochemicals and therefore still be worth extracting for these purposes even if there is no net energy gain.)

Actually, it takes something like the equivalent of 1.5 - 2 barrels of oil in energy to make 3 barrels of conventional oil from oil sands. The technology will surely improve. But, it is unlikely to ever move from 1.5 (or 2) to 1 ratio, to the 20 to 1 ratios we're getting from old wellhead production.
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Old 20-05-2007, 16:04   #26
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Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler
Yeah but...... I guess we also have to include the material sails are made from, how they are made, lines for haylards and sheets as they are all synthetic these days. The manufacture of alloy spars and SST rigging etc etc etc. Just what fuel is burn't at the end of the year is a mute point really.
Good point's Alan, also throw into the mix how much "bad stuff" is produced in the manufacture of solar panel's and storage batteries, lead keel's, resin and foam's, and we might have to re-think how "green" we all really are.

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Old 20-05-2007, 16:06   #27
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Thanks for the clarification Gord. That is incredable considering the amount of air, ground and water pollution being generated that the costs are so high.

Edit:
Just to stir the pot...<GR>

http://policyalternatives.ca/documen...ca_Summary.pdf
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Old 20-05-2007, 16:52   #28
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It would be interesting to compare the energy cost of a suit of sails and the running rigging of a sail boat against the cost of fuel for a similar sized powerboat. Unfortunately I don't think it can be done since gasoline is a commodity in a way that sails and rigging are not. To include the nonconsumable components, hull rigging, etc) of sail and powerboats in a measure of their relative impact on the environment would most likely be a wash. If I had to gamble on the suibject I would wager that sailboats are far more efficient methods of leasure travel than powerboats. Ultimately if one was planning to stay as green as possible he would choose a used boat over building new, choosing to dilute the impoact of the original build. But the original question, as poorly considered as it was, had to do with the pollution of gasoline engines vs diesel and included sailboats in the example.
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Old 20-05-2007, 19:07   #29
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Just to add to the post above....

to manufacture the large engines and trany's the power boats has require lots of energy to produce. The large castings and machine work require heat and electricity. The pistons in a 6-71 jimmy is probably the same amount of aluminum as a 36' sail boat mast.

The melting temperature for the lead keels is only 625 F vs the 2800+ F for iron in an engine block. And aluminum is only 1220 F

As well, a power boat of the same length as the sail boat will have twice as much fiberglass/resin.

So, the energy costs are twice that of a mono sail boat respectively..................._/)
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Old 20-05-2007, 19:19   #30
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to manufacture the large engines and trany's the power boats has require lots of energy to produce.

As well, a power boat of the same length as the sail boat will have twice as much fiberglass/resin.

)
But if you have an efficient design with small engines.....................we have 65hp per side on a 50 footer.

My mates 42 footer has 37hp per side

These are both similar in size to the equivelent sailing cat motor.

Again an efficient, light design has less glass. We have a 16mm timber core with 600gsm of glass on each side with strategic extra where needed.

A lot of the structure is lighter as you don't have a mast trying to tear the boat appart, or a keel trying to tear the bottom out.

Much less resin and glass than your average solid glass yacht or powerboat.

Dave
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