Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-01-2009, 12:34   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
winged power

An option for the power boaters, all you do is steer the boat and set your speed, the boat does the rest.
Soon solar paneled. And it is fast
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	170' reduced.jpg
Views:	124
Size:	111.2 KB
ID:	6798   Click image for larger version

Name:	M&M60_HWT-Wing_2HW.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	215.6 KB
ID:	6799  

Click image for larger version

Name:	M&M60_HWT-Wing_4HW.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	245.9 KB
ID:	6800  
__________________

__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-2009, 13:10   #2
Registered User
 
martinworswick's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: southern denmark
Boat: naver 29
Posts: 97
i'm sure the powerboaters will think this is awesome when there's no wind.
__________________

__________________
martinworswick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-2009, 14:12   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ontario canada
Boat: grampian 26
Posts: 1,743
An unstayed mast. Hm I wonder what happens when wind and sea pipe up ?
__________________
perchance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-2009, 17:27   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
take a look at the website of Harbor Wing Technologies most of your questions will be answered there. The whole concept comes from the military and there uses.

__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-2009, 17:31   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
when there is no wind and just motor power this boat moves right along, and inregards to an unstayed Mast. there is very little drag...... this concept has been wind tested
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-2009, 17:35   #6
Registered User
 
BadFish's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Boat: 1989 Carver Santego 3067 - BADFISH
Posts: 220
Images: 13
Send a message via AIM to BadFish
That's dumb.

Cheers

Bill
__________________
Q: "How do you stay fit?"
A: "Passing the vodka bottle and playing guitar." - Keith Richards
BadFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-01-2009, 20:04   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29 49.16 N 82 25.82 W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 12,374
Well I did look at the Harbor Wing Technologies web site and in a quick look the only mention I saw of performance in heavy weather mentioned sea trials that were canceled at 40 kts apparent wind. Unless I missed something there was nothing there that addressed the issue of windage or related issues in heavy weather.

So in my mind the question remains unanswered, for a real world cruising sailor that may be out in high winds how to reduce the windage of a fixed wing sail that will not reef or furl? Never been there myself but have read about boats that were driven past hull speed under bare poles. If just plain mast can move a monohull that fast in a storm what would happen to this design in the same conditions?

Very interesting design. Wing sails have been proven to be the fastest, most efficient rig in a number of tests but not in my opinion suitable for a blue water cruiser.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
skipmac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 06:03   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
I quote JJTCTAYLOR
Wing advantages
Wings will never be for everyone. But take for instance the sailor who can no longer hoist sails or handle the rigging efficiently due to age or ailment. They lose their love for easier system management, the trawler. Why not offer wings as alternative. Easy enough for even a paraplegic to handle alone if you follow the Walker story.

Walker wingsail was mismanaged from the beginning as JOhn Walker really only was marketing a demo for creating wing power on commercial shipping. He never had a strategy for targeting recreational craft. By the time he had demo'd the possibility fuel prices dropped significantly and his whole business premise failed. His new enterprise Shadotec PLC has not gone anywhere as investors have stayed away.

There are issues with any new designs. For instance the wing will have to be demountable for repairs if ever needed. But technical wing repair would be done by any aircraft mechanic. Looking at parts to fail, not many. Single teleflex cable to tail rudder(s) with an internal linkage to the slat. Only moving part taking a load is the mast bearing which is easily maintained.

AS far as danger from squall, the wing would be expected to to freely turn in 4 knots of wind. The speed in which the wing will will feather is directly proportional to the loading. Big gust from new direction, wing will swing very fast. Much faster than your sail can drop, or you can sheet out. The wing is counterbalanced. Inertia for wing swing is centered on the mast. No dumping the lee rail in the drink with a fast moving wing, versus the accidental jibe of a normal sail.

Once feathered, the wings themselves present 1/30th the drag of a similar diameter circular mast, and considering the rigging, wires etc, in much much less than any rig of equivalent sail area. In total much less drag force on a feathered wing than a bare pole sail boat. Bad winds expect the wing to create much less downwind force than a typical sail rig.

Certainly have to agree with all posters that redundant methods have to be established for wing control if electronics fail. But I would NOT dismiss the possibility of a market for winged boat.

There are a few other clever things that wings do. Never flog, can create lift in very light air, while sails flog about. Can set the rudders to back up the boat if desired. Man overboard, set the rudders to reverse and wind brings boat to stop, then back up.

The tail rudders will set the wing to best angle of attack while sails have watch trim and are always a compromise. Set the tail rudders for speed desired and just steer.

Wings never stretch and lose shape over time, don't rip, with UV protective paint no other maintenance for up to 20 years. Bearing life should last longer than the boat.

Anything here look like a good idea ?

What wings will not do well is dead downwind. I could work around that shortfall.

JT

It seems like this is the best way to cruise, I am sure there more questions the power boats may have ............................ what are they?
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 07:18   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Where is the winged proa? It was supposed to be at the Annapolis Boat Show last fall?

Not casting dispersions on the concept, just curious why the concepts are not yet reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixed wing View Post
It seems like this is the best way to cruise, I am sure there more questions the power boats may have ............................ what are they?
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 08:25   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 53
Proa

Design done but engineering not yet finished. Not that it takes this long, but priorities of the engineering firm and their staff issues has caused delay. LW hull done, WW Hull drawings have been reviewed for finite Element analysis and stress points, but drawings not yet finished. CRoss beams next and wings last. Expect Feb/March to have it all ready for bid on the build.

Always looking for ideas, as the objective is wing cost and sail + rig (winches, tackle, lines, mast, stays, etc) are nearly identical.

Demountable wings by crew of two. When built, we will install the wings to prove they can be attached by a minimum crew. Take many pictures.

JT
__________________
jjtctaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 08:45   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
What's the purpose of starting a second thread on the same subject? Its still a shiney bubble.

Your wing sail has more drag than an unstayed mast, and still has precious structure exposed when bad things like roof shingles and tree branches start flying.

If you are looking for investors, try to focus on the square states, and away from tornado alley.
__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 08:56   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
Dear Sandy
Power guys have a different thought then sailors; it is to see what there thoughts are, from a NON Sailor point of view.......... When you and others look at the proven scientific data on Drag compared to a normal rig the answers are there............... investors no just a thread on Power boaters thoughts and needs
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 09:36   #13
Registered User
 
BadFish's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Boat: 1989 Carver Santego 3067 - BADFISH
Posts: 220
Images: 13
Send a message via AIM to BadFish
Quote:
There are issues with any new designs. For instance the wing will have to be demountable for repairs if ever needed. But technical wing repair would be done by any aircraft mechanic.
I am an aircraft mechanic by profession, have worked active duty and civilian contracted for the USAF the past 8 years. Technical wing repairs are NOT as simple as you make them seem.

First, after the wing has been unmounted, facilities are needed for work to be completed. Unless you dock at the airport, you will need to ask the marina to store your wing while you contract an outside aircraft mechanic (we are not listed in the yellow pages, either) to travel to your site and evaluate the the extent of the damage. Aircraft mechanics make good wages, and you will more than likely be paying time and a half or double to get them away from work. We are already getting into big $$$$ and repairs have not even been made yet.

Second, repairs: cost of aircraft mechanic + cost of parts, right? Wrong. There are many maintenance issues with aircraft wing surfaces that most aircraft mechanics are not qualified to deal with. Delamination to wing surfaces, cracks to wing surfaces, rivet work, etc. This means that once the aircraft mechanic has diagnosed the problem, you will more than likely have to contract another specialist to handle these issues, $$$$$.

$$$$ scenario:
1.) Having marina dismount and store components that they are unfamiliar with, $$.
2.) Finding aircraft mechanic and convincing said mechanic to travel and work on your wing, $$$
3.) Mechanic diagnoses a crack and delamination in a wing surface. Contract a sheetmetal specialist to de-rivet said surface, and upon further inspection it is found that crack can be filled but delamination is unrepairable (or vice versa). New surface needs to be ordered/installed, $$$$$.

Fixed, you came to a CRUISERS forum. Since many cruisers are living on a fixed or limited income, they tend to be very self-sufficient. "If ya can't fix it yourself, or too it's too expensive to fix, it doesn't belong on the boat," tends to be the motto. As you can see, your wing really falls into both of those categories. You may have better luck pitching this at an international yacht show, where people have money to burn on unpractical things.

Cheers

Bill
__________________
Q: "How do you stay fit?"
A: "Passing the vodka bottle and playing guitar." - Keith Richards
BadFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 10:23   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 31
Bill

I am not pitching the Wing to you or anyone I am asking questions. There wings out there that are Soft wing, hard wing (Millar or some sort of plastic film, stayed fixed wing (Americas Cup), unstated fixed, split wing hard, it is to ask question get there views. it seams that the wing is easy to use, simple to control little maintenance , the mast (?) wing head sits in a turret that allows it to rotate 360 degrees
also Jt said you need an Aircraft team to do the service.... not me
I think when more people Blog and ask question more will be answered.............. Bill are you a Cruiser ? where have you gone ? where do you want to go ? is Fuel a problem for you in your power boat?
__________________
fixed wing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-01-2009, 10:37   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 53
I don't think the expense for repair will be as outrageous as predicted. The wing frame and aft covering will be similar to ultra-lite build. That said it is an easy fix for most who can and have worked with home built aircraft. NO RIVETS, no metal. It does not have to meet FAA code, thus will not need certification. The leading edge (wing nose will be carbon fiber, plenty strong to address most flying debris. Aircraft mechanic would only need to assist in a structural failure which would be unlikely. Design FEA has a modeled capability of over 100 knots.

I do agree until more wings are produced there will be an additional handling fee for a marina to pick up and cart off a wing.

I don't have ANY aircraft certified parts. Rudders turn on UHMW/ Delrin bushings. Use standard Teleflex/Morse cable for linkages. I don't see any esoteric parts except that dacron fabric covering has to be stretched via heat gun or hair dryer and doped or painted. Per plan the fabric is attached by HIPEC so no cover strips and rivets.

If it needs expertise beyond a home built then agree to can the whole idea. NO market for ideas that cannot be normally fixed and maintained by owner/operator.

JT
__________________

__________________
jjtctaylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fixed Winged Cat fixed wing Multihull Sailboats 59 17-02-2010 19:21
Hello! So Few Power Cats Wino Meets & Greets 2 21-12-2008 22:08
Range under power witzgall Monohull Sailboats 21 18-09-2008 07:26
How much electric power is needed to power a 40 - 45' cat at 5 knots? KHK007 Multihull Sailboats 40 18-03-2008 07:16
AC Main Power? ssullivan Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 36 24-02-2006 16:15



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.