Wanted:Bluewater high powered Narrowboat

[GILow]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What is interesting to me is the heating systems I keep seeing...

As noted, they are powered by diesel fired boilers. I vaguely remember there being some significant compliance hurdles with gas on the canal boats, greater than those on our conventional sailing/motor boats. I think it is something (sensibly) imposed by the Canal Authority. These boats often operate in very close proximity to houses, I don't think the system would get a good name if boats kept exploding people's lovely new double-glazed sunrooms right off their houses. The poms can get a bit tetchy about that sort of thing.

Anyway, small diesel furnaces like the Webasto and Eberspacher are ideally suited to the task, cheap to buy and run.

[a64pilot]

I watched one of the videos of a boat being offered for sale.
I think he said something along the line of dual 20 lb propane tanks in the bow, whatever they were, I remember thinking they were rather large.
I doubt they are that afraid of gas, it was used extensively in Germany to heat houses, I assume the Brits dumped coal long ago?

Either way it’s going to take a electric pump to pump that water.
The heater fan would run down the battery bank in my motor home in less than a night, a pump running continuously is going to pull quite a lot of power.
What do they do for refrigeration? A small house type of fridge is orders of magnitude cheaper than a marine fridge.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I watched one of the videos of a boat being offered for sale.
I think he said something along the line of dual 20 lb propane tanks in the bow, whatever they were, I remember thinking they were rather large.
I doubt they are that afraid of gas, it was used extensively in Germany to heat houses, I assume the Brits dumped coal long ago?

Either way it’s going to take a electric pump to pump that water.
The heater fan would run down the battery bank in my motor home in less than a night, a pump running continuously is going to pull quite a lot of power.
What do they do for refrigeration? A small house type of fridge is orders of magnitude cheaper than a marine fridge.

The boat we hired had a big-brand 12 volt fridge. I cannot remember the brand now, it has been a few years. The heating was diesel fired hydronic and I THINK the same system must have also provided the hot water, because I can only remember being told about one system during the intro tour of the boat and we certainly did not need to run the engine for hot water. The battery bank was pretty good, at least 800 AH @ 12 volts, and we motored every day, so I don't remember ever looking at the state of charge and being worried.

From what you have seen, it does sound like some boats do use gas cylinders, but I remember, from my extensive research (we were very serious about buying the boat, but I think from memory, it might have been about the time of the GFC, or maybe we bough the Swanson instead...) that gas was a BIG headache in terms of compliance.

But, I am now wondering how the stove on the hire boat worked....

[weavis]

Just returned from viewing boats..
Gas is the norm for cooking.We Brits have large gas bottles and they last for ever, well a few months. auto change over switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmaEVIi7ojc&t=30s

[a64pilot]

I would prefer Diesel heat myself, your buying Diesel anyway.
The water heater in our house in Germany provided hot water and heated the house, which I thought was brilliant, in the US we have separate systems, why?
I’ve always thought the clothes washer being separate from the drier to be some kind of marketing thing to make you buy two machines, why can’t a washer dry upon competing the wash cycle? It wouldn’t be hard to make one that did.
Like the front loaders are now, you either get on your knees to load and empty, or you buy the shelves for them to sit on, why don’t they come with the shelves as part of the machine? I know why, because that way you have to buy the shelves, which are likely quite highly priced for what they are.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

The water heater in our house in Germany provided hot water and heated the house, which I thought was brilliant, in the US we have separate systems, why?

I’ve always thought the clothes washer being separate from the drier to be some kind of marketing thing to make you buy two machines, why can’t a washer dry upon competing the wash cycle? It wouldn’t be hard to make one that did.
Like the front loaders are now, you either get on your knees to load and empty, or you buy the shelves for them to sit on, why don’t they come with the shelves as part of the machine? I know why, because that way you have to buy the shelves, which are likely quite highly priced for what they are.

On all counts......... all these options are available and have been for years.

I have washer dryer combo...

In brit houses, hot water is in a tank heated by the central heating pipes. Or if not heating the water is heated separately.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by weavis

Just returned from viewing boats..
Gas is the norm for cooking.We Brits have large gas bottles and they last for ever, well a few months. auto change over switch.

OK, gas for cooking, what did you see for heating?

[GILow]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I would prefer Diesel heat myself, your buying Diesel anyway.

AND, it is much easier to store really LARGE volumes of diesel, and therefore refill less frequently.

I am not sure how the costs would compare. I did the numbers for electric vs diesel heating on a boat here in Australia, and it was a no-brainer, diesel was less than half the cost. I suspect gas would be significantly more expensive than diesel, in part due to the handling costs involved with the cylinders.

[john61ct]

To the extent shore power is available, likely to be the cheapest - certainly the most convenient - energy source, even if the kWh are marked up.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by GILow

OK, gas for cooking, what did you see for heating?

Solid fuels. Wood, charcoal and coal Stove with or without back boiler..... or diesel-fired, drip stove or separate heating boiler. Eberspacher being the most popular.

[weavis]

heating

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us5dThtk2BY

[GILow]

Originally Posted by john61ct

To the extent shore power is available, likely to be the cheapest - certainly the most convenient - energy source, even if the kWh are marked up.

As I said, I did the numbers. (And I have a degree in pure and applied mathematics).

Here in Oz it was significantly cheaper to use diesel, even at standard retail rates, let alone any markup.

Can’t speak for other counties but don’t assume power is cheaper. You may be surprised.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by john61ct

To the extent shore power is available, likely to be the cheapest - certainly the most convenient - energy source, even if the kWh are marked up.

Available in moorings only. You have to pay for the mooring.

Stand alone cheapest is solar and Diesel.

[weavis]

I still blame you Pete lol.

Awoke in me the lost love of canals...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by john61ct

To the extent shore power is available, likely to be the cheapest - certainly the most convenient - energy source, even if the kWh are marked up.

In the UK the price of electric is 3x the price of gas. It's not quite that easy to compare since electricity or hot water heating is 100% efficient, but gas still wins hands down on price. We have had 40 years of cheap North Sea gas, but a lot of it is now imported from Qatar.

Oil heating in the UK is charged at a lower rate of tax compared to diesel for propulsion. So a canal boat can use the low tax rate diesel for heating, generating electricity or cooking. However, must use the higher rate of taxed diesel for propulsion.

How does that work out in reality? well when you top up the fuel tank you declare the percentage used for heating and the percentage for propulsion. For a yacht if you declare 60/40 that's 60% heating and generating and 40% propulsion HMRC (tax collectors) won't question the figures. Claim 100% lower rate for heating and they might invite you at a later date to justify it. Tricky if you have a diesel engine but no diesel heating or cooking equipment on board.

Canal boats could feasibly claim 100% lower rate fuel for heating and cooking if they didn't plan on moving during the winter.

It has been that way for a decade, until earlier this year the EU Courts decided the UK was in breach of the rules and we were told to stop it. Actually the disagreements have been wrangling on for 2 decades. HMRC have done a wonderful job of stalling, pontificating and sticking two fingers up the the EU courts to the benefit of boaters. However, I think the game is now finally up, well so long as we are in the EU so there is everything still to play for.

Originally Posted by weavis

I still blame you Pete lol.

Awoke in me the lost love of canals...

One of those boats with a large 2 cylinder diesel engine went passed us going chug, chug about once a second. What a lovely sound ticking over at about 400 revs.