Selene vs Nordhavn

[dpons]

Hi. I do not know the first thing about powerboats, I sail.

Yet looking at your dilemma and budget, I would think that a two boat solution would work: One for Mexico (not necessarily full blue-water), and keeping the one you have for the PNW. That would save you the expense of a ocean-ready boat for trips that perhaps you will not enjoy.

Good luck with your search.

[cat man do]

Why not just find something more economical to buy and run?

This sort of comfort
Lifeline Photo Gallery







With this sort of economy

Powered by a Gardner 6LX, coupled with a 38inch propellor, Lifeline gets along at a cruising speed of about 7.0 knots for 1100 RPM. We believe that diesel usage will be 10 litres per hour at those revs but are also hopeful of better economy by changing the pitch of the prop. (We are yet to definitively work out the fuel usage. When Philip brought the boat to Queensland from Southern Victoria he motored at 9 knots, 1300 RPM using 14 litres per hour. However the boat was dragging 32 holes in her bottom for the wet well). More on fuel economy to come....[****15 Sep. 2002: After cruising the boat for twelve months we are consistently getting 7 - 8 litres per hour at 7 knots (1100 RPM) and we are ecstatic!!****]

Something similar for sale right now
50 KETCH RIGGED MOTOR CRUISER boat details - BoatPoint Australia

[Bill Lee]

Thanks for the suggestions. A two boat solution is beyond our budget especially when taking into account maintenance, insurance and storage of whichever boat isn't being used. Plus - I wouldn't want the 'headache' of being concerned about the boat not in use if I hear some bad news - such as a storm in the PNW and wondering if that boat is ok. The thread drift has been quite useful for me. I do have the luxury of time to make a decision or to change focus. Originally I wanted assistance in narrowing my choice to one of two manufacturers: Selene or Nordhavn. I was already heavily leaning towards the Nordhavn and this thread reaffirmed that preference. However, this thread also had me rethink my actual USE of whatever boat I get. I still need a heavily built seaworthy boat that has significant range. I'd like creature comforts. Being able to exceed displacement speeds may be nice - but isn't necessary. A boat that can handle the left coast is important - but perhaps I can explore the possibility of darting into ports more for both re-fueling or shelter. The Admiral and I also need to love the boat - when leaving it, if I don't look back at it and think "that's a beauty" then I know we won't be happy. Petty perhaps, but we currently feel that about our boat and we want to have that feeling about our "ultimate" boat too.... Cheers,
Bill

[Highlander40]

Bill, that's why I mentioned this boat Yacht, Performance Cruiser - Krogen Express
Trawler economy, livaboard comfort,speed when you need it, sea worthy and darned good looking too. I don't own one but looked at one. Was totaly sold except that I'm still working.

What's the longest hop that you have to make going to Baja?
I don't know about the rest of you but traveling at night is hard work.

[Bill Lee]

Hi Highlander40,
The Krogen Express has beautiful lines and a reasonable fuel burn rate at slower speeds (3 gph). Nice. I'll check it out on yachtworld shortly. I have no idea what the longest 'hop' would be from the PNW to the Baja. I'm not sure if we'd do it in one go. In the latest round of 'negotiations' with the Admiral she suggested that I get a crew to do the 'hop' all the way up or down, and that she join me via airplane wherever I end up. So far, no expletives as to where that is! I don't know enough about the trip along the left coast to determine whether I can break it up into shorter bits. My preference is that with a crew of 3 (hopefully 4) I'd try and go the entire distance in one go. I understand that's "dooable" subject to weather windows. Cheers,
Bill

[lorenzo b]

I seem to be missing something here. You guys live up in the PNW and have boats that you like for use up there. If you want to do Baja for say four months a year, why not fly down there and rent a boat with captain and crew. Sit down and do the math. How old are you now? How many years will you make this trip? If you spend 500K on a boat and 20K on maintenance every year and in ten years the boat is only worth 200K, you could spend 50K a year renting the boat of your dreams and come out ahead. Now figure in the 20K a year and a month of your time suffering to take your boat down there and back, and I do mean suffering. Or are we talking pride of ownership?

[Bill Lee]

Hi Lorenzo,
Good question. I'll admit to being past my mid 40's and debating when to retire and how. I don't know how many times we'll do this trip (yet). The 'concept' isn't to remain just in the Baja - but anywhere warm in 'winter' and occasional 'summers' in the PNW (not necessarily every year). We don't want captain and crew as we enjoy our own company (and that of other boaters we meet) and enjoy being self-reliant. The planning and execution of trips is part of the fun for us. With a crew you are also far more limited in how long you can 'be out' and limited in where you can go. Then there's the issue of always provisioning and lugging belongings rather than having your 'home' come with you. Using your numbers I calculate
$300,000 depreciation over 10 years
$200,000 maintenance over 10 years
$500,000 total versus $50K a year for 10 years renting our dream boat = $500,000
Even Steven. I choose having my own boat (not including shipping up or down the left coast). Great exercise Lorenzo. I do understand that the Baja Bash is a 'bash'. Going South isn't the problem - its going North. However, its possible to go North and have great conditions. I've met and spoken to several owners who have done it in boats ranging from 40' - 56'. In reviewing the CF threads there's references to the Bash being just dreadful, dangerous to perfectly calm. I think I should crew a trip North to help me decide. That will be part of the research. I started a thread that didn't go far seeking information regarding this trip. Cheers,
Bill

[meyermm]

Bill you have made a fatal mistake do not ever, ever suggest that a cat is not the best regardless. I am still on page one but can just about guarantee what I will be met with on page two!

[Bill Lee]

Hi Meyerm,
I'm fairly new to forums and new to CF. I'm beginning to learn that there are contrary opinions everywhere - lets assume that my opinion is the contrary opinion - not yours. That's actually one of the strengths of forums. If I just wanted opinions to match my own, analysis that followed my logic, I wouldn't be any further ahead in gathering knowledge/information. It's the differences in opinions and the generosity of those willing to share their knowledge/information and opinions that creates debate, spreads information and makes the forums interesting as opposed to reading an expressed opinion followed by a dozen "ditto's". So thanks for your opinion. Now... would you care to support that opinion with 'argument'? Frankly, my information regarding cats is more anecdotal. I haven't come across information on passage making cats. In the PNW, docking a cat is problematic because of space issues. However, ignoring that, what are the characteristics of cats that make them more seaworthy (or equally seaworthy) to a full displacement hull? How do cats perform in rough seas/big waves (beam seas, following seas or head seas)? I'd love to know because cats have some advantages. They're quite stable (at least in calm seas), have shallow draft, don't require stabilizers. How about load characteristics? I don't have all the answers but would love some information that isn't anecdotal (I already have that). Cheers,
Bill

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by meyermm

Bill you have made a fatal mistake do not ever, ever suggest that a cat is not the best regardless. I am still on page one but can just about guarantee what I will be met with on page two!

What were you guaranteeing and what did you find?

[meyermm]

Bill I just have gotten tired of cat owners constantly having to ram down my throat how wonderfull a cat is how stupid I am for not believing all that they espouse etc. I did have a very nice Mono but it had its faults like all boats and I did not constantly espouse how great it was to all whether at a Marina, anchorage or internet. As for your choice of boat most who have replied have done it in a none biased and informative manner. My experience with Nordhaven is limited but I did meet two of them while crossing the Pacific and their owners seemed very satisfied with the performance, the only negative I can remember being that the gremlins took some time to iron out and these boats had been purchased new. Running costs would be a big issue for me especially the fuel and they are not particularly fast. Good luck!

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Bill Lee

Frankly, my information regarding cats is more anecdotal. I haven't come across information on passage making cats. In the PNW, docking a cat is problematic because of space issues. However, ignoring that, what are the characteristics of cats that make them more seaworthy (or equally seaworthy) to a full displacement hull? How do cats perform in rough seas/big waves (beam seas, following seas or head seas)? I'd love to know because cats have some advantages. They're quite stable (at least in calm seas), have shallow draft, don't require stabilizers. How about load characteristics? I don't have all the answers but would love some information that isn't anecdotal (I already have that). Cheers,
Bill

If you plan on doing ocean crossings in rough weather with a big load I would suggest that you need something along the lines of this

$1,000,000 48ft version
$750,000 46ft version
Though I'm not sure what the range would be at 10 knots

If, you plan your trip so as to avoid the really rough weather which as a liveaboard you can do easily then something more like this may suffice



Stanyon Powercat $500,000

And if you want to keep the waterline length up for better seakeeping , economy up (approx 1 l/nm at 8 knots) yet carry a reasonable load (2500kg) then something along the lines of what I am building will be the go. But you will need a custom build or be lucky enough to find similar.


At the end of the day, you sound like you will have no need to really be out there when the going gets real tough and even if you are, steaming slowly into it, using a parachute anchor and parking or running with the weather are fine tactics.


If I was a lot richer, personally, I would have one of these



http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index...01returnid=150

[Bill Lee]

Hi meyermm and cat ma do,
Thanks for the posts. I checked out the link and pics for the 48' ($1,000,000) version. It wasn't my cup of tea. Regardless, I'm sure there are cats out there that I would like (layout, build quality, materials, design and overall appearance). However, I still have no info on the seakeeping abilities of cats....I suppose that should bea different thread. I'll look it up in this forum. If its not in CF maybe someone should start that thread. It would be quite informative and likely spark a lot of interest. Cheers,
Bill

[Bill Lee]

Just spent about 15 minutes searching for such threads (cats vs. monohulls) in CF. There's lots of info out there and links to various posts. Unfortunately, it was anecdotal (most favouring cats in rough weather). Interesting. Not what I expected. To be fair I tought I'd refer to this non-thread issue here as it did come up and get discussed. Cheers,
Bill

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Bill Lee

Just spent about 15 minutes searching for such threads (cats vs. monohulls) in CF. There's lots of info out there and links to various posts. Unfortunately, it was anecdotal (most favouring cats in rough weather). Interesting. Not what I expected. To be fair I tought I'd refer to this non-thread issue here as it did come up and get discussed. Cheers,
Bill

Perhaps more to the point, for the style of cruising you plan on doing...

The intended use is for fulltime liveaboard. Wife and I. Occasional short term guests (say 1-2 weeks). I doubt that we'll attempt to cross the Atlantic or Pacific. However, we may cruise as far as 150-120 nm from shore when traveling long distances. Initially. we'll probably want to spend 'summers' May(ish) to September(ish) in the PNW and Mexico in the "winter' (after hurrricane season). We have no offshore experience. We may get confidence to then travel further afield and go through the Panama Canal to the Carribbean or along Central America.

...mostly protected and parked with the occasional 2 days at most offshore while on passage, why do you feel the need for the best "rough water vessel" when this may be something silly like 0.000001% of your time onboard.

Surely economy, stability, ability to take to the bottom for repair and get over a shallow entrance to access a lagoon or hide up a shallow river if needs be would be more of a concern.

Like I said earlier, as a live aboard you will be a able to pick your weather to suit you and your vessel.

It's pretty rare that weather "just appears" out of no where while doing basically coastal and short hops.

Not trying to steer you any particular way as I could see myself in a 50 ft ex trawler with a slow spinning Gardner just fine at the moment