New to larger displacement boats..

[donradcliffe]

[QUOTE=Stumble;2346188 Also note that as rowed vessels they have ROW over a motor driven boat all the time. So even if they are in your way, they have rights.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you could point us to the Colreg rules which cover rowed vessels??

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by canyonbat

That has always been the problem. The wake usually takes a while to hit you then it takes a bit more time to pick yourself up or get yourself back out of the water. By the time you are clear headed enough to think about the guy that caused it, he is usually long gone. We used to tie up between two trees in a wakeless area back up a long narrow canyon. We had a "Wakeless Area!" sign we would hold up along with our camera as speeding boats came past. They usually slowed down and sometimes even apologized.

Your posting a wakeless sign I am afraid means nothing legally. No wake please might have been more effective.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Unless it was an official NO Wake Zone it might be a hard sell in court?

Nope, it absolutly is not. The presence of a no wake zone, or the lack of one, has nothing to do with liability for the damage your wake causes. As far as the courts are concerned hitting a vessel with your wake is no different than hitting them with your bow. Either way you caused a collision and are at fault.

If anything there are good reasons to believe that you are more responsible for damage caused by your wake than running someone over. If you actually hit someone with your boat there is a good argument they must have been at least partially at fault, which is harder to show when you hit the most with your wake.

[seahag]

Crew teams where I went to college acted like they owned the whole lake, and I got a chuckle out of the wake thing...minor crime to be sure. They will talk about you while sipping mint juleps at their clubs later. Have as much empathy toward them as jetskiers (none)

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Maybe you could point us to the Colreg rules which cover rowed vessels??

I actually can't. It has been a long running argument I have been having with the USCG Districts 5 Safety Officer. I think the COLREGs treat them as power vessels since it is silent under Part A Rule 3 and oars are machinery. He thinks they are treated in the same class as sailing vessels because they are specifically required to show the same lights as a sailing vessel and thus at night you have to treat them the same.

We both agree the rules really just left them out and with the increase in paddleboards and sea kayacks the rules need to be updated to include them specifically.

But he is the Safety Officer for the busiest and most influintle USCG station in the country, and I am an attorney. So I argue with him at the bar and tell him he is wrong, then do what he says on the water.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Nope, it absolutly is not. The presence of a no wake zone, or the lack of one, has nothing to do with liability for the damage your wake causes. As far as the courts are concerned hitting a vessel with your wake is no different than hitting them with your bow. Either way you caused a collision and are at fault.

If anything there are good reasons to believe that you are more responsible for damage caused by your wake than running someone over. If you actually hit someone with your boat there is a good argument they must have been at least partially at fault, which is harder to show when you hit the most with your wake.

Greg,

Could be depending on the court? I would not bet on it. A-holes throwing a big wake have always been there. More young affluent people today with boats as toys probable makes it worse? Trying to pursue it is probably pissing into the wind. Just hang on when you see it coming.

[30West]

Originally Posted by seahag

Crew teams where I went to college acted like they owned the whole lake, and I got a chuckle out of the wake thing...minor crime to be sure. They will talk about you while sipping mint juleps at their clubs later. Have as much empathy toward them as jetskiers (none)

You must have been an east-coaster? We rowed in smelly industrial runoff that no recreational boater would touch, although the ski team showed up occasionally. We kept our shells in a former military quanset hut, our boats broke down, our oars didn't match. We cooked hot-dogs and drank cheap beer at our gatherings. We complained we weren't getting enough sleep between school and crew and our night job. But it was fun. We weren't much different from other Midwest teams I thought, maybe a little rougher and less funded.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I actually can't. It has been a long running argument I have been having with the USCG Districts 5 Safety Officer. I think the COLREGs treat them as power vessels since it is silent under Part A Rule 3 and oars are machinery. He thinks they are treated in the same class as sailing vessels because they are specifically required to show the same lights as a sailing vessel and thus at night you have to treat them the same.

We both agree the rules really just left them out and with the increase in paddleboards and sea kayacks the rules need to be updated to include them specifically.

But he is the Safety Officer for the busiest and most influintle USCG station in the country, and I am an attorney. So I argue with him at the bar and tell him he is wrong, then do what he says on the water.

I agree with you on the "machinery" point because you can go faster, go slower, stop and reverse with oars or paddles on demand just as you can with an engine - you are not constrained by external forces the way a sailing vessel is.

But I also agree with the Safety Officer - if you can't tell a sailing vessel from a vessel under oars, you need to treat them both the same.

Yes - it really needs to be updated.

Personally, even in a sailboat I steer well clear of the fishing dinghies and dugouts that are common in these parts.

[ashedd]

This is reminding me of another question/issue I had some time ago..

The question was, if I'm in the middle of the lake(no anchoring allowed), and I'm adrift(power off and chatting with friends), am I compelled to fire up my engines and move out of the way of vessels under sail? Since in theory all vessels must yield to others that are adrift. I kept getting dirty looks from sailors as they whizzed by because they had to change course(ever so slightly mind you) to miss me.

And it's not just me, it's literally hundreds of other power boats that drift, power off, on this lake with a huge number of sailboats. Throwing out an anchor is not allowed without a permit. So you sit there at the mercy of the wind. Some days it's nice because it takes a couple hours before you need to move the boat, and other days you can't go more than about 10 mins without drifting into someone else. Usually on days like that I head over to a shallow bay and illegally drop anchor, like a lot of other people. The police don't seem to mind but if you stayed all night I'm sure they would hassle you.

On Christmas eve I lost the starboard engine while in the vicinity of a LOT of other boats, at night, in the wind. Starboard wouldn't start and stay running(dead fuel pump) so I couldn't maneuver at all. I finally hightailed it out of there and tied up to a public dock for the rest of the night. This thing really gets moved around by the wind. I may even get a sea anchor for when I'm out in the big lake and I want to keep the bow into the waves.

When I was looking at 28 footers I was concerned about a single screw boat, for both maneuvering and redundancy. I've only been talking about lakes so far... it's a short trip through the locks to salt water. Ans that's where my real concerns are.

[Stumble]

Ashedd,

Techincally... if you turn off the motor but can restart it at will you are still a motor driven vessel and technically are the give way vessel to sailboats.

If you are suffering from motor failure due to 'extraordinary circumstances' then IF you fly the day shape for a 'vessel not under command' the sailboat becomes the give way vessel.

Practically I wouldn't stress it all that much.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Greg,

Could be depending on the court? I would not bet on it. A-holes throwing a big wake have always been there. More young affluent people today with boats as toys probable makes it worse? Trying to pursue it is probably pissing into the wind. Just hang on when you see it coming.

It could be, and if you want to pay me to research it I would be happy to get in depth with it. But two of the larger circuits have held that you are responsible for your wake, and any damage it does (the 5th which is the most important Maritime court in the country, and the 11th which includes Florida).

There might B even something out there from the 9th (California) or one of the other smaller circuits. But if I walked into court on a Maritime claim with the 5th and 11th holdings directly on point I would bet a better than 95% chance to win absent a clear circuit split in that circuit.

The most likely way this gets brought to court is a big power boat goes by and the wake flips over a Kayack or paddle board and someone's goes to the hospital. In this case who do you think is the more sympathetic party, the rich guy who sent an 18 year old on a paddle board to the emergency room, or the guy with a big boat?

[canyonbat]

Originally Posted by ashedd

This is reminding me of another question/issue I had some time ago..

The question was, if I'm in the middle of the lake(no anchoring allowed), and I'm adrift(power off and chatting with friends), am I compelled to fire up my engines and move out of the way of vessels under sail? Since in theory all vessels must yield to others that are adrift. I kept getting dirty looks from sailors as they whizzed by because they had to change course(ever so slightly mind you) to miss me.

I suspect that if there are dirty looks it is because either they recognize you from a previous encounter or you are suffering from a guilty conscience and are imagining it. We go past sitting boats all the time on our lake. I do give them a hard look but its not because I am mad at them, it is because I am looking closely to see if they have, or are about to have, fishing lines or skiers out that I need to avoid or if they are about to make a sudden move. We pass, we wave, they usually wave back and often take pictures. I can't imagine any of my sailing friends expecting a sitting boat to start their engine and move. If I suggested it, I would be laughed off the lake.

Having said that, we were told that if we are drifting in our boat and a pod of Orcas come upon us we do have to fire up the engine and move!

[seahag]

Originally Posted by 30West

You must have been an east-coaster? We rowed in smelly industrial runoff that no recreational boater would touch, although the ski team showed up occasionally. We kept our shells in a former military quanset hut, our boats broke down, our oars didn't match. We cooked hot-dogs and drank cheap beer at our gatherings. We complained we weren't getting enough sleep between school and crew and our night job. But it was fun. We weren't much different from other Midwest teams I thought, maybe a little rougher and less funded.

Haha, that's cool- new respect! I went to Wisconsin. Got woke up every morning about 5:30 by bullhorned coxswains bellering directions...where is Rodney dangerfield when you need him?

[mako]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Maritime speed limits are akin to reduced speed zones around schools. Make sense?

Everyday those dang kids get in my way while I'm rushing to work. That's why I installed a cow-catcher on the front of my truck. Solved that problem!!

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Ashedd,

Techincally... if you turn off the motor but can restart it at will you are still a motor driven vessel and technically are the give way vessel to sailboats.

Even more to the point - even when drifting, you are "underway" so not exempt from any of the relevant rules:

"The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground"