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Old 03-07-2016, 15:53   #46
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

But RC, you just wrote that crime does not justify crime, and even wikipedia has this to say about SS's methods, " .....Operations have included scuttling and disabling whaling vessels at harbor, intervening in Canadian and Namibian seal hunts,[3] shining laser light into the eyes of whalers,[4][5] throwing bottles of foul-smelling butyric acid onto vessels at sea,[5] boarding of whaling vessels while at sea, and seizure and destruction of drift nets at sea. Sea Shepherd claims that their aggressive actions are necessary, as the international community has shown itself unwilling or unable to stop species-endangering whaling and fishing practices.[6]" Which of those actions do you not consider to be crimes? Or is it that you support their illegal actions?

Simply put, yes, whaling is illegal, but so is piracy. It is inconsistent to ride the law and order wagon and at the same time support piracy. Or do you think it is okay to risk blinding people with your laser? okay to board vessels by force? okay to steal someone's way of livelihood?

I entirely disapprove SS's methods. Their goal is worthy.

Ann

on edit: RC, I do not mean to offend you with my plain talk, but please, do question SS's methods. They've become big business now, and are setting a precedent that is dangerous to all, imho. I guess your mileage is different.
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Old 03-07-2016, 16:25   #47
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

Good to hear about their new boat, I am all for sticking your finger in the eye of the man. If you want to shoot a whale, you better wear some fancy goggles. If you were about to shoot a whale, you can bet I would shoot you with a Laser. Stink bombs! are you kidding? What do you think a gutted whale smells like? You people probably use Rhino horn to get it up, or is it Tiger testicles?.
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Old 03-07-2016, 16:44   #48
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Good to hear about their new boat, I am all for sticking your finger in the eye of the man. If you want to shoot a whale, you better wear some fancy goggles. If you were about to shoot a whale, you can bet I would shoot you with a Laser. Stink bombs! are you kidding? What do you think a gutted whale smells like? You people probably use Rhino horn to get it up, or is it Tiger testicles?.
Hi, Guy,

We disagree. How we choose to show it reflects on us.

After much consideration, I think that the sort of hero behavior popular in TV, movies, film, and internet, where the hero is "justified" in unlawful behavior is a poor example to society as a whole. It supports bully behavior, and vigilantism.

As to being a seaman, who must keep watch, even with temporary night blindness, you're a lot less able to do what you must.

Ignoring ramming and theft is your choice, but not mine.

Good day to you, sir.

Ann
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Old 03-07-2016, 16:47   #49
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Ok Hoppy, I've already conceded to your point and explained my intent.. And admitted I didn't word it very well. What else do you want?
You should probably just delete the thread. Here's why. This is the definition of internet trolling:
Quote:
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.
Now this is Cruiser's Forum, a website about Cruising, Sailing, and living aboard. This ship is not a sailboat, a cruising yacht or something that any of us are likely going to buy as a liveaboard. By the very definition, this thread is trolling because it's off-topic for this forum and includes a very controversial organization that is not universally supported.

That would be comparable to someone starting a thread about the KKK or the Black Panthers, especially considering how the US federal court views SS.

All 3 organizations use terrorist tactics to achieve their goals, period.

https://www.rt.com/news/sea-shepherd-court-pirates-534/

Another fact that you need to accept is that the Japanese, Norwegian and Icelandic whalers are not poachers. They have, and have always had, permission from the International Whaling Commission to hunt a predetermined number of whales per yr for scientific research. SS is a rogue organization who has taken it upon themselves to attack and harass whaling fleets that are operating within the law and with full knowledge of the entire IWC membership.

If SS wants to effectively stop whale hunting, they should deal directly with the IWC and get the scientific research loophole closed, I would support that LEGAL course of action.

To recap, posting facts, regardless of how much you don't like them, is not trolling.


As far as the ship goes, I'm no expert, but it looks pretty fugly to me.
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Old 03-07-2016, 16:56   #50
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Originally Posted by Chas.7 View Post
An interesting article about whales. Audubon November- December 2009 states some 70,000 whales die and can sink to the ocean floor. The main causes were starvation, injury, and disease
One wonders who was doing the counting...... no mention of the time period.

That said while we all know that whales are nice warm cuddly creatures ( you may change your mind on that when your pet whale takes a dump on your living room carpet ) who cares about the krill? The russians are hoovering them up...soon no krill... starving whales.

No mileage or big donations in a 'Save the Krill' campaign.

And what about the mackerel ? No votes there either I guess...

Hands up all those who support the antiwhaling campaign of SS but also eat farmed salmon... hypocrites all....

Blue whale and baby blue......
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Old 03-07-2016, 17:23   #51
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Hi, Guy,

We disagree. How we choose to show it reflects on us.

After much consideration, I think that the sort of hero behavior popular in TV, movies, film, and internet, where the hero is "justified" in unlawful behavior is a poor example to society as a whole. It supports bully behavior, and vigilantism.
ming and theft is your choice, but not mine.
Good day to you, sir.Ann
Oh well lets never rise up, it's all good? You know a whale has a higher brain body mass than several humans. How good does a whale taste anyway? I don't suppose you for example, use their bones for your corset or perhaps their blubber for perfume? They don't use whale oil for light anymore do they?
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Old 03-07-2016, 17:33   #52
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
You should probably just delete the thread. Here's why. This is the definition of internet trolling:

Now this is Cruiser's Forum, a website about Cruising, Sailing, and living aboard. This ship is not a sailboat, a cruising yacht or something that any of us are likely going to buy as a liveaboard. By the very definition, this thread is trolling because it's off-topic for this forum and includes a very controversial organization that is not universally supported.

ARe you really suggesting that mulit hulls are universally supported? What if anything on this thread is universally supported ?

Have you not seen the climate change thread? Why can that thread operate but we who want to discuss Sea Shepherd can't? Why is it that if people like yourself feel so compelled you have to come onto a thread you don't believe should be operating and call for it to be shut.

That would be comparable to someone starting a thread about the KKK or the Black Panthers, especially considering how the US federal court views SS.

oh come on.

All 3 organizations use terrorist tactics to achieve their goals, period.

https://www.rt.com/news/sea-shepherd-court-pirates-534/

Another fact that you need to accept is that the Japanese, Norwegian and Icelandic whalers are not poachers. They have, and have always had, permission from the International Whaling Commission to hunt a predetermined number of whales per yr for scientific research. SS is a rogue organization who has taken it upon themselves to attack and harass whaling fleets that are operating within the law and with full knowledge of the entire IWC membership.

If SS wants to effectively stop whale hunting, they should deal directly with the IWC and get the scientific research loophole closed, I would support that LEGAL course of action.

To recap, posting facts, regardless of how much you don't like them, is not trolling.

As far as the ship goes, I'm no expert, but it looks pretty fugly to me.
I'm not suggesting that IS trolling: I see no problem with you putting your position forward as you have. Except that you have taken it upon yourself to come on to this thread and call for the thread to be closed.. That's trolling.

And as for the Japanese, they have been found by Australia's highest court, not to be conducting scientific programs so frankly, you are WRONG.

Both Norway and Iceland were given permission to hunt whales as part of tradition and culture, not for 'science' as you claim. As a result Norway has made it quite clear to the IWC that they do not feel compelled to obey it. So, again you are WRONG.
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Old 03-07-2016, 17:38   #53
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

Enviornmental activism is so sensative, can't you change the subject to something more comfortble that everyone can agree on like cancer or islamic fundamentalism?
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Old 03-07-2016, 17:40   #54
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
But RC, you just wrote that crime does not justify crime, and even wikipedia has this to say about SS's methods, " .....Operations have included scuttling and disabling whaling vessels at harbor, intervening in Canadian and Namibian seal hunts,[3] shining laser light into the eyes of whalers,[4][5] throwing bottles of foul-smelling butyric acid onto vessels at sea,[5] boarding of whaling vessels while at sea, and seizure and destruction of drift nets at sea. Sea Shepherd claims that their aggressive actions are necessary, as the international community has shown itself unwilling or unable to stop species-endangering whaling and fishing practices.[6]" Which of those actions do you not consider to be crimes? Or is it that you support their illegal actions?

seriously Ann, Wikipedia?

Simply put, yes, whaling is illegal, but so is piracy. It is inconsistent to ride the law and order wagon and at the same time support piracy. Or do you think it is okay to risk blinding people with your laser? okay to board vessels by force? okay to steal someone's way of livelihood?

I entirely disapprove SS's methods. Their goal is worthy.

Ann

on edit: RC, I do not mean to offend you with my plain talk, but please, do question SS's methods. They've become big business now, and are setting a precedent that is dangerous to all, imho. I guess your mileage is different.
Not offended Ann - I appreciate your post and your views.

You are calling them guilty of piracy, and yet can you name any legislation in the world that they could be convicted of 'piracy' ??? I'd suggest not.

Is it okay to steal someone's way of livelihood? You mean like Somali Pirates? Person's who really do fit the definition of 'pirate'? Who really do kidnap people and vessels? Who really do kill people?

blinding people with lazer's ? I've not previously come across this one before. What I have seen is Japanese poachers deliberately ramming vessels, I've seen them fire tear gas and when it blew back into their own eyes they lodge a complaint that SS was using tear gas. I've seen them thrown grapling hooks down onto ribs in an exceptionally dangerous method of detering SS vessels.

Keep in mind, these are poachers.. they are unlawful. They have been found by a court to be poaching and acting unlawfull in a whale sanctury. Why do you defend them?
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Old 03-07-2016, 18:41   #55
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

I might point out that I'm far from a 100% supporter of Sea Shepherd. There are a number of things I entirely dislike and disagree with.

Whilst I very much like Paul Watson's resolve and dedication to wild life and the environment, I find him exceptionally arrogant and egotistical.

And I also find him quite dishonest and willing to lie and spread falsehood in order reach an aim. I don't agree with this type of 'ends justifies the means'. In one of his books he talks and encourages this approach. Personally I think this is where a lot of people like Ann get their information from. They actually believe a lot of the propoganda of Sea Shepherd. Even taking seriously their flying of the jolly roger as pirates. It's all an act to make them look worse and it works.

I also cannot support their veganism and even less their philisophical view that all life is equal. Paul Watson actually believes the life of a cat, puppy, sheep, cow, is equal to that of the life of a human being

But the bottom line for me is that this organisation, despite all their failings is 'policing' something that no other government, including our own is.

I would however draw the line and wouldn't support them if they were deliberately going out to physically harm people or use violence against the person.
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Old 03-07-2016, 18:48   #56
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

Piracy, "robbery of ships at sea"--Australian Pocket Oxford Dictionary.

Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source of information, but I thought their description of the questionable actions by SS was fairly dispassionate. The behaviors mentioned are not denied by SS.

SS are a non profit corporation, based in Washington State, in the USA. They must be fairly large to purchase ships such as the one this thread started out to be about.

Please do not mistake my meaning here with what I have written. It is SS's methods I do not condone. This does not mean in any way that I support poaching. I already stated I support their goals, but not their methods.

I know they are popular here and in the US. I still do not support their methods.

Yes, it is possible to permanently blind someone with a laser, but I do not know what kind of lasers SS uses, nor about the sharpshooter qualifications of the person(s) using one. I think shooting a laser towards someone's eyes would qualify in an Australian court as an assault.

Imo, the Somali pirates are also pirates, worse in some ways, and SS is more dangerous in different ways because it is big business using illegal means to promote business. I don't really think Somali pirates have much to do with a discussion of SS methods.

[Interesting irony, SS, sort of like storm troopers, eh?]

You don't think SS ramming another vessel and stealing from it is piracy? I sincerely believe you are mistaken.

I am outta here for a while, now, back later. Someone please return the thread to discussion of the boat.

Ann
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Old 03-07-2016, 18:51   #57
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

The Audubon article was the whales death estimate for one year.
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Old 03-07-2016, 19:01   #58
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Piracy, "robbery of ships at sea"--Australian Pocket Oxford Dictionary. Correct

Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source of information, but I thought their description of the questionable actions by SS was fairly dispassionate. The behaviors mentioned are not denied by SS.

SS are a non profit corporation, based in Washington State, in the USA. They must be fairly large to purchase ships such as the one this thread started out to be about. Actually, that's just SS USA, SS Australia is based in Melbourne, Victoria.

Please do not mistake my meaning here with what I have written. It is SS's methods I do not condone. This does not mean in any way that I support poaching. I already stated I support their goals, but not their methods. I wold contend that if you support doing nothing to stop an illegal action, then you are in fact supporting that action.

I know they are popular here and in the US. I still do not support their methods.

Yes, it is possible to permanently blind someone with a laser, but I do not know what kind of lasers SS uses, nor about the sharpshooter qualifications of the person(s) using one. I think shooting a laser towards someone's eyes would qualify in an Australian court as an assault.

Imo, the Somali pirates are also pirates, worse in some ways, and SS is more dangerous in different ways because it is big business using illegal means to promote business. I don't really think Somali pirates have much to do with a discussion of SS methods.

[Interesting irony, SS, sort of like storm troopers, eh?]

You don't think SS ramming another vessel and stealing from it is piracy? I sincerely believe you are mistaken.

I am outta here for a while, now, back later. Someone please return the thread to discussion of the boat.

Ann
I'm not sure where you are getting this laser idea from. I'm not conscious of them every using lasers to shine at people? If they are then that's certainly something I'm not supportive of.

My reference to Somali pirates is because they fit a discription of 'piracy' which I don't think anyone disputes. But, you are claiming SS 'ramming another vessel and stealing from'... I'll ask again, why do you claim this? What vessels have they stolen from?

And even, if they did for example ram, boarded and took control of and made citizen's arrests of those operating the vessel and then took that vessel to a harbour and handed them over to police (which they don't), but if they did, then why is that piracy? If a member of the public, stops a car hijacking, detains the person, puts them in a car and drives them to police would you consider the person taking the action a 'car hijacker'?

My whole point is that SS acts on unlawful poachers. With the Somali pirates, would you consider it 'piracy' if a merchant crew got the upper hand of a somali skip and took control of it and detained the crew? Using your logic, would that also not be piracy?
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Old 04-07-2016, 00:17   #59
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

I seen reports that whale meat consumption is on the decline in Japan despite attempts to promote it. Much of the whale meat ends up in freezer storage for the long term. Younger Japanese are not so interested in whale meat.

So you have to wonder why Japan is continuing to send ships?

Pride!!!!

SS are prolonging the Japanese whaling because the Japanese do not want to be seen as letting that Fat arrogant F........ claim a victory. I don't blame them one bit.

I think that if SS never happened and saving the whale was left to Greenpeace, the Japanese would have walked away from whaling now, or at least reduced the catch to a very small number compared to now, with the plan to phase it out.
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Old 04-07-2016, 00:19   #60
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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I'm not sure where you are getting this laser idea from. I'm not conscious of them every using lasers to shine at people? If they are then that's certainly something I'm not supportive of.
Lasers, acid used in whaling clashes - World news - World environment | NBC News

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