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Old 26-04-2014, 13:46   #1
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Minimum Cruising Range Needed to Cruise all Areas

Hello:
I was initially planning on buying an ocean-going trawler once I retired (about 5 +/- 2 years out). Those trawlers end up very expensive and crossing an ocean may not be to the liking of the better half.
The other option would be to buy a less capable (cheaper) trawler, cruise various regions (Caribbean, Alaska, ...) and then pay a boat transporting company to take it to Europe or South Pacific.
Has anyone seen a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of crossing oceans yourself versus having a big ship take care of that? Time/risk/financial considerations.
If I go with the "regional" trawler, what would be considered the minimum cruising range to explore the major cruising regions?

I was looking at hybrid-powered coastal cruisers like the Greenline 48 with a 900nm range.
About Greenline 48 - Greenline
Thanks for any info.
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Old 26-04-2014, 15:27   #2
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

In my eyes the Greenline is a test bed piece of engineering that sells a lot of sizzle with very little steak.

Because of the compromises in its hull form it falls exactly in the line of other semi-planning hulls.. Bad ride in displacement mode, burns to much fuel at speed. If you really want to see a long range cruiser take a look a Dashew's FPB 64. It's long, lean, and burns a fraction of the fuel the Greenline does, and can maintain high average speeds for the duration of a crossing, as opposed to high peak speeds in flat water.

The cost to actually do a long crossing depends entirely on what boat and what speed, so it's hard to make generalizations. The Dashew is probably much cheaper to go on its own hull, the Greenline take a FoFo ship.

The difference is the a Greenline is really designed to be an island/ near coastal boat, and that's fine. The FPB is designed to cross oceans. Just take a look at the difference in a few major specs...

...........Fuel cap......range......at X kn.....installed Hp
GL.......1,500L........900km......7............220-760
FPB....12,800L.....6,400km......9............236

Now the fun part of the FPB is you don't have to burn all your fuel to get to a refueling spot then fill up where fuel is expensive (say Hawaii), instead you just keep going until you find cheap fuel somewhere else. Dashew for instance talked about making a side trip to Venezuala to refuel after leaving Alaska, since fuel there was pennies on the dollar compared to US prices.
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Old 26-04-2014, 19:40   #3
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

In North America the furthest distance between fuel stops is I believe ensenada to Turtle bay at approx 300nm.



The furthest open water distance is 220 nm between Yakutat Alaska and Hinchinbrook entrance.

Everything else can be done with shorter jaunts.

Longer fuel range buys you choices but it isn't necessary.

Pick a boat you like, can afford, and can afford to properly maintain. Then go cruising.
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Old 26-04-2014, 20:16   #4
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

We were quoted US$48,000 to have our boat shipped from Thailand to Turkey although they also quoted us US$41,000 to go from Thailand to Ensenada.

Right now, we're tied up next to a Nordhavn 55 that's flying a 30,000nm burgee.

Fair winds and calm seas.
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Old 26-04-2014, 20:45   #5
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
In my eyes the Greenline is a test bed piece of engineering that sells a lot of sizzle with very little steak.

Because of the compromises in its hull form it falls exactly in the line of other semi-planning hulls.. Bad ride in displacement mode, burns to much fuel at speed. If you really want to see a long range cruiser take a look a Dashew's FPB 64. It's long, lean, and burns a fraction of the fuel the Greenline does, and can maintain high average speeds for the duration of a crossing, as opposed to high peak speeds in flat water.

The cost to actually do a long crossing depends entirely on what boat and what speed, so it's hard to make generalizations. The Dashew is probably much cheaper to go on its own hull, the Greenline take a FoFo ship.

The difference is the a Greenline is really designed to be an island/ near coastal boat, and that's fine. The FPB is designed to cross oceans. Just take a look at the difference in a few major specs...

...........Fuel cap......range......at X kn.....installed Hp
GL.......1,500L........900km......7............220-760
FPB....12,800L.....6,400km......9............236

Now the fun part of the FPB is you don't have to burn all your fuel to get to a refueling spot then fill up where fuel is expensive (say Hawaii), instead you just keep going until you find cheap fuel somewhere else. Dashew for instance talked about making a side trip to Venezuala to refuel after leaving Alaska, since fuel there was pennies on the dollar compared to US prices.
The FPB 64 looks like a very safe and well designed boat at least on par with the Nordhavns. I guess they are probably even more expensive than the Nordhavns. BTW the Greenline range is 900nm. I figured that should be enough to cruise around in French Polynesia.

My current shortlist of manufacturers. Anyone I have not mentioned?

Nordhavn Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart


Kadey-Krogen Kadey-Krogen Yachts: Krogen 39' Kadey-Krogen Yachts: Krogen 44' Kadey-Krogen Yachts: Krogen 48' AE Kadey-Krogen Yachts: Krogen 52'

DeFever DeFever Cruisers Links of Interest - A Club for Yachting Enthusiasts with a Passion for DeFever Vessels and the Cruising Life! DeFever Sales and Service | DeFever Yachts | DeFever Dealer East Coast USA| Yacht Broker Chesapeake Bay MAryland| Atlantic Yacht Works Grasonville Maryland Chesapeake Bay

Seattle Selene SeleneSeattle SeleneSeattle SeleneSeattle SeleneSeattle

Greenlinehybrid.com Greenline 33 About Greenline 33 - Greenline Sea Magazine 04/2014 Sea Magazine - May 2014 page 28 Greenline 40 About Greenline 40 - Greenline Geenline 48 About Greenline 48 - Greenline

Northpacificyachts.com North Pacific 49 Pilot House Sea Magazine 04/2014 Sea Magazine - May 2014 page 32

Garcia Trawler 54 GT54 Sea - America's Western Boating Magazine Nos voiliers

FPB 64 SetSail ยป FPB 64

Added: Fountaine-Pajot Power Catamarans

Fountaine-Pajot http://www.motoryachts-fountaine-paj...mmerland-40-lc Range up to 1350nm range at 7.5 knots, 1800L / 476 gallon (standard 2 x 150HP or 2 x 220HP). http://www.motoryachts-fountaine-paj...mberland-47-lc Range up to 1790nm at 8.5knots (upgraded 2 x 300HP) or 1600nm at 8.0knots (standard 2 x 225HP), 2400L fuel.
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Old 26-04-2014, 21:22   #6
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
In North America the furthest distance between fuel stops is I believe ensenada to Turtle bay at approx 300nm.



The furthest open water distance is 220 nm between Yakutat Alaska and Hinchinbrook entrance.

Everything else can be done with shorter jaunts.

Longer fuel range buys you choices but it isn't necessary.

Pick a boat you like, can afford, and can afford to properly maintain. Then go cruising.
Thanks.
Are the distances the greatest in the South Pacific?
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Old 26-04-2014, 21:38   #7
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

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Originally Posted by sgunes View Post
Thanks.
Are the distances the greatest in the South Pacific?
It depends on from where to where. California to Hawaii is a little over 2000nm.
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Old 27-04-2014, 00:01   #8
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
It depends on from where to where. California to Hawaii is a little over 2000nm.
Bermuda to the Azores is also close to that.

Greenline is really very limited in terms of conditions it can handle well. To get it to work with the electric, the weight is drastically reduced. They are built to CE category B standards which is offshore but not ocean crossing worthy.

Each person has their areas of comfort in ocean crossing but it's more than the boat. The experience of the Captain/Crew/Owner is very important. Certainly not for the novice or faint of heart.

We do intend to cross one day, but there is years of cruising to be done without ever crossing an ocean. You have an entire continent, coastal and inland, to start with. Great Loop 2 years, East Coast and Bahamas 2. West Coast and Alaska 2. Back and forth from East to West 1 year twice. That's 7 glorious years and that doesn't yet include the Caribbean or Central or South America. At that point so many choices. Charter elsewhere. Ship boat. Cruise it across ocean if deemed worthy. Probably not a lot of cost difference between the three options.

Crossing from the East Coast to Europe by water on a trawler is probably a good month with some time in Bermuda and some in the Azores. Actually travel time 2 to 3 weeks. But you could explore without crossing an ocean for a couple of decades and still long for more. What about a year on the Great Lakes. Then maybe one on the Tennessee and Cumberland Rivers. One exploring the Gulf of Mexico from the Keys to Brownsville. Months of pleasure on the Chesapeake Bay. 700 islands to explore in the Bahamas.

I would find a boat that comfortably fit my budget and enjoy all those areas that you're comfortable with in it and that your wife is also comfortable with. One bad experience going beyond what's appropriate for the two of you can take a lot of the joy away. The famous Nordhavn group crossing was successful but there was one lady who insisted the boat be put up for sale the moment they reached land. As to how adventurous you are and your risk quotient, only you can answer that.

And having that big ship take care of the crossing for you is probably $30-40,000 today depending on the boat.
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Old 27-04-2014, 05:38   #9
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

Well, lets get specific. Since you spoke of a new Greenline 48, I assume that your budget is somewhere in the $1 MM range, particularly if a new Nordhavn (47' presumably) is on your short list.

So a new Defever 48 is going to cost about $750,000 or a new Nordic Tug 48, maybe a bit more. Both are coastal cruisers and if you run them at 8 kts, they have a 500 NM range.

On the other end of the spectrum a Selene 47 is going to cost $1MM+ and at the top end a Nordhavn 47 is going to cost about $1.2 MM. Both are ballasted, full displacement hulls with a range of upwards of 3,000 NM.

So for the first group you save $250,000+ and when you are ready for Europe, ship it over for $30,000 or so and the S Pacific for maybe $50,000. Unless you do this a half a dozen times you come out ahead with the coastal cruiser.

Comfort and amenities is another issue though. The Selene and Nordhavn can (and should) be equipped with stabilizers. Both have nicer fit and finish than the Defever or the Nordic Tug and the Nordhavn is built with rock solid systems.

So, it is all a matter of personal choices and preferences. BTW forget the Greenline. That is a science experiment, at least the hybrid/solar model, not a real world cruiser.

David
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Old 27-04-2014, 05:58   #10
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

Crossing oceans with power boats is -- well, not really what power boats do best. For a whole lot of different reasons, this is what sail is for.

And even during a circumnavigation, the vast majority of sailors spend the vast majority of the circumnavigation in port or sailing coastwise or between islands.

So if you want to go power cruising, why worry about crossing oceans? Just buy a boat and cruise, as someone said. There is enough to see in the islands and around the coasts to last you ten lifetimes. Ocean crossings are very narrow and specific kind of adventure, and they are best done under sail, as do 99.99% of recreational sailors who cross oceans. If you really want to cross oceans, and you really insist on doing it under power, then the Dashew power boats are the thing. They are amazing. But they have a very narrow purpose in life -- travelling very long distances with comfort under power. For the normal kind of power cruising, you will be much better off with a more normal kind of trawler like a Nordhavn.

Another bit of advice: Avoid complication and exotic technology in anything you take to sea. If you want a seaworthy power boat for long-term cruising, you can't do better than a Nordhavn; and some of the cheaper substitutes mentioned above can also be entirely acceptable.
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Old 27-04-2014, 07:41   #11
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgunes View Post
Thanks.
Are the distances the greatest in the South Pacific?
Were you just aksing about distances related to the quote?

I would think an atlas or a globe would pretty much answer that question.
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Old 27-04-2014, 07:58   #12
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

A lot of people come to this lifestyle with a romantic notion about what it means to "cross an ocean". All boats are a compromise to some degree but particularly in the powerboat world, adding ocean crossing capability seriously increases the price and changes the coastal liveability. I'm just guessing but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most of the Nordies and Selenes that I see tied up in yacht club moorage have owners who are more into the appearance of cruising than the reality. And further, they would be a lot happier in some dockside condo than their purpose built ocean crosser but of course that boat wouldn't carry the image that they want to project. So my advice to the OP is "spend a lot of time figuring out what you REALLY want to do and if, as I suspect, that turns out to be coastal cruising, then buy a boat designed for that purpose".

Once you settle on a purpose then my further advice is "don't try to innovate". I've got nothing against innovation but it tends to be really expensive and somewhat risky. There's tons of proven designs so pick one and use it. When you're two days or a week or more away from any support other than what you have onboard you'll be a lot happier with tried and proven designs than you will with bleeding edge technology.
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:20   #13
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Were you just aksing about distances related to the quote?

I would think an atlas or a globe would pretty much answer that question.
The question related to distances is: if you do not get an ocean-crossing vessel (>3000nm range), what would the minimum range be to cruise: Caribbean (probably just 200-300nm), Alaska (about the same as mentioned in another response).
I can look at Google Maps and check out distances but what I need is info regarding harbors and re-fueling stations. I assume that the biggest distances are in French Polynesia and I would like some input from people who actually have been there.

If you don't like or understand my question, please don't waste your time with a non-response. Thanks.
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:30   #14
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

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Well, lets get specific. Since you spoke of a new Greenline 48, I assume that your budget is somewhere in the $1 MM range, particularly if a new Nordhavn (47' presumably) is on your short list.

So a new Defever 48 is going to cost about $750,000 or a new Nordic Tug 48, maybe a bit more. Both are coastal cruisers and if you run them at 8 kts, they have a 500 NM range.

On the other end of the spectrum a Selene 47 is going to cost $1MM+ and at the top end a Nordhavn 47 is going to cost about $1.2 MM. Both are ballasted, full displacement hulls with a range of upwards of 3,000 NM.

So for the first group you save $250,000+ and when you are ready for Europe, ship it over for $30,000 or so and the S Pacific for maybe $50,000. Unless you do this a half a dozen times you come out ahead with the coastal cruiser.

Comfort and amenities is another issue though. The Selene and Nordhavn can (and should) be equipped with stabilizers. Both have nicer fit and finish than the Defever or the Nordic Tug and the Nordhavn is built with rock solid systems.

So, it is all a matter of personal choices and preferences. BTW forget the Greenline. That is a science experiment, at least the hybrid/solar model, not a real world cruiser.

David
Thanks for your valuable input.

Regarding budget, I was figuring between $500K to $750K depending if it is a smaller/used or larger/new boat.
I liked the pricing on the Fountaine-Pajot Summerland 40LC power catamarans which have about 1300nm range and start at Euro 380K. Fully equipped it would probably be around $500K.
As a cruising couple that should be big enough. The range should be enough for all areas and after doing Alaska and Carribeans, I may ship it from the East Coast to Europe one day and cruise there for months. The next step would be shipping it from Europe to Thailand/French Polynesia and then back to US. So I think the maximum would be about 3 shipping segments. It looks like overall the shipping/local leasing option would be cheaper and probably safer.

What's the impression of monohulls versus catamarans. The cats claim better stability and fuels savings on top of less draft (good for Caribbeans).
Is that a discussion for a separate post?
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Old 27-04-2014, 14:55   #15
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Re: Minimum cruising range needed to cruise all areas

The Greenline 48

Quote:

Electric max speed 6 kts
Electric cruising speed 4 kts
Electric sailing range 20nms
I can push a wheelbarrow faster...
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