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Old 25-05-2014, 14:01   #1
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Large Older MY's, Cheap to Buy, But....

Expensive to run.

Today you can buy a lot of "luxury" on the cheap (< $ 250K), but what are the costs to enjoy that new purchase?

The 25 year old 60'+ range of Hatteras are the purchase bargain of the century. Many well cared for old Hatts in this range are selling in the $250K market. Why so cheap? My guess is the limited market of qualified buyers. I don't mean qualified as to the operation of a 100,000 lb boat but rather have the economic means to operate it.

There is also the operational limitations of the MY vs. the LRC when it comes to sea state. It is dicey for the MY in anything greater than 6' seas.

But the main point of this post is machinery costs for the MY.

A few specs

(2) DD 2 stroke 12V71 at 650 hp, at a 2000 rpm cruise will burn 66 gallons per hour and will run around 2500 hours between rebuilds. $2000 per cylinder for rebuild or $24K per engine.

(2) 20 kw gen sets because the MY uses 7 A/Cs due to poor engine room ventilation. For comfort throughout the boat figure on 2.5 gallons per hour.

There are of course many other operational costs but I'll just mention machinery related costs.

The idea is you don't go cruising but rather live aboard, say 6 months in New England and 6 months in Florida/Bahamas. That is 1100 nm twice a year plus marina costs.

Only running 2200 nm per year will keep machinery costs down. On a 60'+ Hatt with 1170 gallon tanks that is only 7 fill ups per year at a cost of $37K @ $4.50 per gallon.

Marina costs will be less than 24/7 use of those gen sets for those 7 A/Cs and other loads, but if being on the hook in anchorages is what you want then figure on $3K per month on fuel for the gen sets.

Funds to be allocated to engine rebuilds for the above scenario per year $1250 per main engine and $3000 per gen set engine, or $8500 per year.

If my math is correct, machinery costs for 6 months in NE and 6 months in Florida/Bahamas is $81500 per year, a bit less if in a marina slip with shore power.

I guess I'll stay will sailboats.

Does anyone on the forum run a big older Hatt MY that moves it about 1000 miles twice a year and is a live aboard care to chime in on machinery costs?
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Old 25-05-2014, 14:46   #2
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

Oh I don't know.

Yes those detroits might only last 2500 hours if you run those big boats up on plane all day but I'd guess you'll get allot more life out of a set of them if you just cruise the boat at hull speed with an occasional high speed run.

As far as operational limits, as long as your coastal cruising, it doesn't matter anyway. I'd guess those old heavy hatterases will take allot more than 6' seas but why. You have a big comfortable home, why not enjoy it. No need to go out in rough seas when you're at home. You could easily take one of those old boats or any coastal cruiser for that matter anywhere you want to go along a coastline. You cannot cross oceans, but there is tens of thousands of miles of exploring you could do in the Americas.

I also think you're way off on the fuel consumption. Again, it's just my opinion but I'd bet that at hull speed those big old heavy boats get between 1/2 and 1 nmpg.

Genset use and time will be expensive though if you anchor off quite a bit but what is the price for having a air conditioned home on the water.

Yes the old Hatteras Motoryachts represent a lot of boat for the money. They will take allot of maintenance, but offer a large platform to enjoy the water on.

In my opinion they represent a bit more boat than the wife and I need, but if we had a bunch of people we needed to have with us, then we would have seriously considered one.

I saw the interior photos of just such a boat recently. It was just purchased by GG a member here. What a nice platform for her and her kids to enjoy. What a life they are going to have. How much different will her kids be when they reach adulthood than "subdivision" kids. What a good mom for getting her kids out of the city and into a childhood on the water!
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Old 25-05-2014, 14:47   #3
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

The first problem I see with your calculations is most here would not run it at 2000 rpms. They'd do the majority of their cruising closer to 1000 or so, opening it up occasionally. At 10 knots your fuel usage would be very low. If you ran mostly at 10-12 knots, your fuel costs would be less than half what you've shown. I'd estimate $12,000-$15,000 per year.

As to the gensets, you're not going to run both of them constantly. Yes, if you anchor out all the time in warm climates, you'd run them a lot. Still I think your number represents both of them and full load. I'd say again your number may be double.

As to your reserves for rebuilds, I get there quite differently from you with more for the mains vs. the gens. But if you are paying for all the work your total could even be on the low side. A lot depends on you. Plus you could be years from a rebuild.

Does the boat have stabilizers? If so that can be a sizable expense on occasion.

Our budgeted machinery cost on a similarly sized boat is just over $22 per mile. But that is with us running it mostly at cruise. However, that's not with anchoring. Still I'd think your annual costs would be more in the $40,000 - $50,000 range than the $81,500 and if you were able to do most of the work, that could easily come down.

I will say this too. Most who do the six months here, six months there in powerboats use marinas most of the time rather than anchoring out all the time. They find marinas in the areas with decent long term rates.
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Old 25-05-2014, 15:02   #4
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

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Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
...

I also think you're way off on the fuel consumption. Again, it's just my opinion but I'd bet that at hull speed those big old heavy boats get between 1/2 and 1 nmpg.
Kevin, a question.

You mention nmpg. Is that how skippers with motorboats measure their fuel consumption?

My experience with our auxiliary diesels in sailboats is usually in gallons per hour, regardless of distance. That could well be because us slower sailboats are more influenced by currents, and therefore a 2 knot current could make a HUGE difference in distance traveled over the same time period depending on which way you're going: bucking or going with it.

Thanks,

Stu

PS Nice comment about GG's new boat. Has she closed and "disclosed" what boat it is?
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Old 25-05-2014, 15:09   #5
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

Thanks for the replies. I was basing costs through this write up Boat Review by David Pascoe: Hatteras 61 Motor Yacht - Hatteras Yachts but totally agree if run at a lower rpm costs and time between overhaul would be better.

I've been trying to convince a new person to powerboat cruising to go with a late model, efficient type cruiser such as a light displacement power catamaran. They went with a 63' 27 year old Hatt MY, and I was curious to the operational costs. A family friend started with sail, but as he got older switched to a Hatt LRC for entertaining clients as he worked in advertising. This allowed the costs to be a write off, and his smaller LRC model has a fraction of the machinery costs of the larger MY.

Winter rates for a slip in the Bahamas will run a bit over $3000 per month with water and electricity for this 63' MY, so much cheaper than 24/7 gen set time.
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Old 25-05-2014, 15:11   #6
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

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Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Expensive to run.

Today you can buy a lot of "luxury" on the cheap (< $ 250K), but what are the costs to enjoy that new purchase?

The 25 year old 60'+ range of Hatteras are the purchase bargain of the century. Many well cared for old Hatts in this range are selling in the $250K market. Why so cheap? My guess is the limited market of qualified buyers. I don't mean qualified as to the operation of a 100,000 lb boat but rather have the economic means to operate it.

There is also the operational limitations of the MY vs. the LRC when it comes to sea state. It is dicey for the MY in anything greater than 6' seas.

But the main point of this post is machinery costs for the MY.

A few specs

(2) DD 2 stroke 12V71 at 650 hp, at a 2000 rpm cruise will burn 66 gallons per hour and will run around 2500 hours between rebuilds. $2000 per cylinder for rebuild or $24K per engine.

(2) 20 kw gen sets because the MY uses 7 A/Cs due to poor engine room ventilation. For comfort throughout the boat figure on 2.5 gallons per hour.

There are of course many other operational costs but I'll just mention machinery related costs.

The idea is you don't go cruising but rather live aboard, say 6 months in New England and 6 months in Florida/Bahamas. That is 1100 nm twice a year plus marina costs.

Only running 2200 nm per year will keep machinery costs down. On a 60'+ Hatt with 1170 gallon tanks that is only 7 fill ups per year at a cost of $37K @ $4.50 per gallon.

Marina costs will be less than 24/7 use of those gen sets for those 7 A/Cs and other loads, but if being on the hook in anchorages is what you want then figure on $3K per month on fuel for the gen sets.

Funds to be allocated to engine rebuilds for the above scenario per year $1250 per main engine and $3000 per gen set engine, or $8500 per year.

If my math is correct, machinery costs for 6 months in NE and 6 months in Florida/Bahamas is $81500 per year, a bit less if in a marina slip with shore power.

I guess I'll stay will sailboats.

Does anyone on the forum run a big older Hatt MY that moves it about 1000 miles twice a year and is a live aboard care to chime in on machinery costs?
Bob,

Since it's obvious that this post is for my benefit. Might as well clarify, that I do not intend to hop back and forth from NE to Fl every year.
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Old 25-05-2014, 15:14   #7
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Kevin, a question.

You mention nmpg. Is that how skippers with motorboats measure their fuel consumption?

My experience with our auxiliary diesels in sailboats is usually in gallons per hour, regardless of distance. That could well be because us slower sailboats are more influenced by currents, and therefore a 2 knot current could make a HUGE difference in distance traveled over the same time period depending on which way you're going: bucking or going with it.

Thanks,

Stu

PS Nice comment about GG's new boat. Has she closed and "disclosed" what boat it is?
Well you let the cat out of the bag, but yes GG closed and took delivery on "Ladie Sadie" a well cared for 63' Hatt MY of 1987 vintage. I think she will be very happy with it but I hope she knows the operating costs with such a vessel.
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Old 25-05-2014, 15:17   #8
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

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Bob,

Since it's obvious that this post is for my benefit. Might as well clarify, that I do not intend to hop back and forth from NE to Fl every year.
Your new boat looks to be in pristine condition. Does it have the upgraded engine room ventilation system? From the article I read, it seems that was one of the reasons for (7) A/C systems.
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Old 25-05-2014, 15:19   #9
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Jackson View Post
Kevin, a question.

You mention nmpg. Is that how skippers with motorboats measure their fuel consumption?

My experience with our auxiliary diesels in sailboats is usually in gallons per hour, regardless of distance. That could well be because us slower sailboats are more influenced by currents, and therefore a 2 knot current could make a HUGE difference in distance traveled over the same time period depending on which way you're going: bucking or going with it.

Thanks,

Stu

PS Nice comment about GG's new boat. Has she closed and "disclosed" what boat it is?
Yes in powerboats we generally think in terms of nmpg at different speeds. That way we can plan out our fuel stops.

Here's a good example. Seward, AK to Yakutat, Ak. 106NM between Seward and hinchinbrook entrance. I can do that at hull speed and get a conservative 1.5nmpg so that run will burn 70 gallons. Hinchinbrook to Yakutat is open ocean and I prefer to do it during daylight hours at 14 knots fast cruise. I get 0.75 nmpg and the distance is 210NM so that run will burn 280 gallons. Total trip fuel is 350 gallons and I can save fuel in a pinch by making the long run at hull speed. Since I carry 440 gallons of diesel we're good to go.

GG bought a hatteras motoryacht. its on her web site. I do not know her but applaud her sense of adventure, and her spirit. My son had a similar adventure filled childhood and I think he's a better human being for it.
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Old 25-05-2014, 16:34   #10
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

OK gents, lets think about this rational. The scenario above is way out of line and bogus from the start. Nobody runs their MY that fast. Even a 50-60ft Hatt burns about 9 gals/hr at 9 kts. Equating to 1 mile/gal running the ICW at hull speed. I run mine at under hull speed and burn 3.5-4.0 gals/hr. Actually at 7.5 kts and 1250 rpm. I ran from Southport, NC to Stuart, Fl for $1,100. I ran down to the keys and up the West Coast across the Okeechobee water way and back to Stuart for another $700. So whats the difference between a sail boat and MY? Slip fees are the same. Insurance is the same. Haul out and bottom paint is the same too. Those are the biggest expenses owning a cruising vessel sail or power. Next fuel expenses and it depends on how much you run. Maint. cost ran me about $500/yr for both engines and genset. Whats the big deal with that? I anchor out as much as possible because we like being away from the hustle and bustle. We do not run the genny for cooling. Our hatches and ports are more than adequate for keeping the boat cool at night. While anchoring out for extended weeks like at boot Key, we ran the genset 1.5 hrs in the a.m. and same in the p.m. Genset burns .5 gal/hr. Most large cruisers do about the same with the exception their large genset burns 1 gal/hr (not enough to break the bank). The engines have their maintenance cost but its not all that much considering oil changes and heat exchanger cleaning every so often. But hey, sail boats have to replace sails, rigging, ropes, lines. I think the cost are about the same. I bet a 62ft sail boat has some very expensive running rigging. The numbers that the Deck officer put out are totally in left field and would scare someone into not purchasing a beautiful old MY. If you were going to do some long range cruising like to BVI/ carib, then yes, go with sail, but if you are going to go coastal or live on your boat, you cant beat a 40-60 MY.
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Old 25-05-2014, 16:45   #11
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

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OK gents, lets think about this rational. The scenario above is way out of line and bogus from the start. Nobody runs their MY that fast. Even a 50-60ft Hatt burns about 9 gals/hr at 9 kts. Equating to 1 mile/gal running the ICW at hull speed. I run mine at under hull speed and burn 3.5-4.0 gals/hr. Actually at 7.5 kts and 1250 rpm. I ran from Southport, NC to Stuart, Fl for $1,100. I ran down to the keys and up the West Coast across the Okeechobee water way and back to Stuart for another $700. So whats the difference between a sail boat and MY? Slip fees are the same. Insurance is the same. Haul out and bottom paint is the same too. Those are the biggest expenses owning a cruising vessel sail or power. Next fuel expenses and it depends on how much you run. Maint. cost ran me about $500/yr for both engines and genset. Whats the big deal with that? I anchor out as much as possible because we like being away from the hustle and bustle. We do not run the genny for cooling. Our hatches and ports are more than adequate for keeping the boat cool at night. While anchoring out for extended weeks like at boot Key, we ran the genset 1.5 hrs in the a.m. and same in the p.m. Genset burns .5 gal/hr. Most large cruisers do about the same with the exception their large genset burns 1 gal/hr (not enough to break the bank). The engines have their maintenance cost but its not all that much considering oil changes and heat exchanger cleaning every so often. But hey, sail boats have to replace sails, rigging, ropes, lines. I think the cost are about the same. I bet a 62ft sail boat has some very expensive running rigging. The numbers that the Deck officer put out are totally in left field and would scare someone into not purchasing a beautiful old MY. If you were going to do some long range cruising like to BVI/ carib, then yes, go with sail, but if you are going to go coastal or live on your boat, you cant beat a 40-60 MY.
Thank you!!! This is your standing ovation.
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Old 25-05-2014, 16:51   #12
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

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Your new boat looks to be in pristine condition. Does it have the upgraded engine room ventilation system? From the article I read, it seems that was one of the reasons for (7) A/C systems.
Bob,

You have to know that Hatteras has a remarkable reputation and known for having built quality yachts?

I feel like your grasping for straws.

I know your pissed that I didn't buy what you wanted me to buy, but really???
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Old 25-05-2014, 17:26   #13
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

Bob, I have two main points. He beat me to it. See response number 10. He is right on. There is no reason to run air conditioning 24-7 if you would not do so on your sail boat. We anchor most of the time. When not moving the boat we need an hour to two hours of genset time a day, depending on cooking, tv and movie use. If it is really hot we run the genset for an hour or so in the evening and cool down the sleeping cabin before we turn in. This can be done concurrent with the evening movie......

I have a friend that bought a salvaged Hat 53. He sold the DD and put in a couple of used International 6 cylinder engines. He also added an eight foot wet deck on the back and a bulbous bow. He gets 3 to 4 gallons an hour at 8.2 knots depending on conditions. It does have a rather quick, uncomfortable motion in a beam sea but by watching the weather he has crossed the Golf of Mexico several times and has a great life style. I haven't seen hard numbers for costs but he came from a sailing background and is convinced that he would be spending more on a 50 to 60 foot sail boat.
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Old 25-05-2014, 17:49   #14
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnawake View Post
OK gents, lets think about this rational. The scenario above is way out of line and bogus from the start. Nobody runs their MY that fast. Even a 50-60ft Hatt burns about 9 gals/hr at 9 kts. Equating to 1 mile/gal running the ICW at hull speed. I run mine at under hull speed and burn 3.5-4.0 gals/hr. Actually at 7.5 kts and 1250 rpm. I ran from Southport, NC to Stuart, Fl for $1,100. I ran down to the keys and up the West Coast across the Okeechobee water way and back to Stuart for another $700. So whats the difference between a sail boat and MY? Slip fees are the same. Insurance is the same. Haul out and bottom paint is the same too. Those are the biggest expenses owning a cruising vessel sail or power. Next fuel expenses and it depends on how much you run. Maint. cost ran me about $500/yr for both engines and genset. Whats the big deal with that? I anchor out as much as possible because we like being away from the hustle and bustle. We do not run the genny for cooling. Our hatches and ports are more than adequate for keeping the boat cool at night. While anchoring out for extended weeks like at boot Key, we ran the genset 1.5 hrs in the a.m. and same in the p.m. Genset burns .5 gal/hr. Most large cruisers do about the same with the exception their large genset burns 1 gal/hr (not enough to break the bank). The engines have their maintenance cost but its not all that much considering oil changes and heat exchanger cleaning every so often. But hey, sail boats have to replace sails, rigging, ropes, lines. I think the cost are about the same. I bet a 62ft sail boat has some very expensive running rigging. The numbers that the Deck officer put out are totally in left field and would scare someone into not purchasing a beautiful old MY. If you were going to do some long range cruising like to BVI/ carib, then yes, go with sail, but if you are going to go coastal or live on your boat, you cant beat a 40-60 MY.
This I'm very happy to hear. Like I said I pulled the numbers from the review I posted above. I'd rather go slow too to save on fuel burn and mechanical wear.
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Old 25-05-2014, 18:14   #15
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Re: Large older MY's, cheap to buy but....

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Bob,

You have to know that Hatteras has a remarkable reputation and known for having built quality yachts?

I feel like your grasping for straws.

I know your pissed that I didn't buy what you wanted me to buy, but really???
GG, you really have me wrong. I'm happy for you and your purchase. You got a lot of bang for you buck.

Magnawake's post has taught me it shouldn't be as expensive to run as this review implied. Boat Review by David Pascoe: Hatteras 61 Motor Yacht - Hatteras Yachts

The author is well respected in Hatteras circles so I assumed his review was accurate.

Bottom line is your pleased with your purchase and that is what counts. The collective wisdom of the CF community can make suggestions on how to cruise economically.

But in fairness to me you have to admit your mission statement has changed over time. When you first arrived on CF as one of the many "wannabes", I took you seriously and figured out early you would be one of the few that buy the boat and start the dream. Look back at those posts. But when you first showed up it was with the idea of crossing oceans. Then coastal cruising and now marina living with maybe some small trips. Had I known this was going to be your mission from the beginning, I wouldn't have bothered with the newer, lighter displacement designs and probably would have suggested an older Hatt just because of their reputation and numbers available.
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