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Old 27-07-2011, 19:56   #121
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

psneeld: Eric and I strongly believe that if we are wise boaters that plan properly and execute carefully, we should never need to fight an onboard fire or have major hull damage or capsize. Hello, wasn't this whole thread started about how to pick a trawler that is safe in big seas in the first place? Haven't we talked ad nasuem about how the proper precautionary systems can prevent such problems from happening?

However, should that day come, we do have a battery operated bilge pump that can be wired into the electrical system onboard for flooding, 9 fire extinguishers plus a fire suppression system in the engine room for fires, and the appropriate epoxys, plugs and so forth to deal with hull damage.
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Old 27-07-2011, 20:32   #122
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by ChristiGrab View Post
psneeld: Eric and I strongly believe that if we are wise boaters that plan properly and execute carefully, we should never need to fight an onboard fire or have major hull damage or capsize. Hello, wasn't this whole thread started about how to pick a trawler that is safe in big seas in the first place? Haven't we talked ad nasuem about how the proper precautionary systems can prevent such problems from happening?

However, should that day come, we do have a battery operated bilge pump that can be wired into the electrical system onboard for flooding, 9 fire extinguishers plus a fire suppression system in the engine room for fires, and the appropriate epoxys, plugs and so forth to deal with hull damage.
After 50 years of boating I know a plastic bag or jellyfish doesn't cause catastrophic engine damage.

Even thinking a battery wired bilge pump can keep up with the most remedial flooding is dangerous thinking.

Fire and flooding are two of the most common at sea disasters and can be caused by a variety of problems...have had both and both take pretty instant reaction to prevent catastrophe.


I’m sorry if I offended you…. Not my intent…just pointing out the obvious.
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Old 27-07-2011, 22:51   #123
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

Let's recap: Somewhere in this thread I made the point that there is more to a passagemaking trawler than just carrying enough fuel. There needs to be a full displacement design, weighted keel, and reinforced hull for safety in big seas. Also, because of the lack of sails, the engine needs to be extra robust and not vulnerable to any sort of weaknesses that will disable it. Among the items I listed as weaknesses were a wet exhaust system because sucking in a plastic bag or jellyfish could be catastrophic.

psneeld said above:
Quote:
After 50 years of boating I know a plastic bag or jellyfish doesn't cause catastrophic engine damage...Fire and flooding are two of the most common at sea disasters and can be caused by a variety of problems...have had both and both take pretty instant reaction to prevent catastrophe.
Um, in the diesel engine maintenance and repair training class I took when we first got our boat, I was taught that if a plastic bag was sucked into a wet exhaust system, the engine temperature would get really high. The heat could cause the exhaust system to breaks down and allow flooding, or the engine could get so hot that it could catch fire. I would call either result "catastrophic."

Didn't you say fires and floods were the most common sea disasters? Maybe if more people had dry exhaust systems, there wouldn't as many floods and fires?

Let's say you are diligent on watch and notice the engine temperature rising. You realize there is something in the exhaust pipe and shut down the engine. You are crossing the Pacific and the swells are 10 feet with 4 foot wind chop waves. You jump in to remove the plastic bag. Because of the serious wave action, you crack your head on the swim platform and die. I would call that catastrophic.

As I have said and will continue to say, it is better to have a safe system to start with so the catastrophe never comes.

As an FYI, we have 4 bilge pumps aboard. Automatic low and high water pumps, a manual pump and the aforementioned battery powered one that could be wired into the onboard electrical system.
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Old 28-07-2011, 00:13   #124
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

A thousand or more miles from a safe haven. Your masts and sails have been broken, ripped, or washed away. You have 50 gallons of fuel for the auxiliary engine. So, you are better off than a disabled powerboat? I'd bet the survival of motor-driven craft has been higher than sail-powered on the open ocean.

The only transoceanic trips I've made (what's the count now, seven or eight?), or ever to intend to take, are on diesel engine-powered craft.
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Old 28-07-2011, 00:25   #125
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by ChristiGrab View Post
Let's say you are diligent on watch and notice the engine temperature rising. You realize there is something in the exhaust pipe and shut down the engine. You are crossing the Pacific and the swells are 10 feet with 4 foot wind chop waves. You jump in to remove the plastic bag. Because of the serious wave action, you crack your head on the swim platform and die. I would call that catastrophic.
Let's say the winds have risen. You go to shorten sail. An unanticipated movement of the boat throws you off balance and you are thrown overboard or you break your head/spine and die. I'd bet safety at sea has increased since motorcraft.
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Old 28-07-2011, 00:29   #126
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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A thousand or more miles from a safe haven. Your masts and sails have been broken, ripped, or washed away.
So I hoist the spare main and jib I have down below. Using the spinnaker pole or boom if necessary. Definitely better than staring a some tiny bent, broken or worn part of a diesel. Then I make a pizza, have some cold beers, and send an email to mom by using a little of that 50 gallons of diesel. Just a small crimp in the cruise.
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Old 28-07-2011, 00:32   #127
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

The only open-sea rescue I've observed first-hand was to pick up three sailors from a sloop in the Pacific Ocean. The sloop was abandoned to its fate. We were on a diesel-powered vessel and "steamed" on to our destination.
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Old 28-07-2011, 00:42   #128
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by ChristiGrab View Post
I suspect the fines posted probably are for the rally and not necessarily all cruiser
The fines posted have nothing to do with any rally
The fines posted are those that are charged to anyone who overstays their visa

Here is some more information for you, this time, from the Indonesian Consulate
Quote:
Visa should be used for initial entry within 3 months from date of issue.

The visa is valid for 60 days calculated from the day of entry into Indonesia. If you wish to stay longer than 60 days, the visa can be extended at the local immigration office a total of 4 times, with extension valid for 30 days. This means that maximum period you can stay in Indonesia is 180 days.

This visa can be used for visiting purposes, including tourist, social culture, family visit, mutual co-operation between the Indonesian Government and foreign authorities, educational, expertise exchanging program, business meetings, goods and services transactions, business-oriented quality control, attending or organizing an exhibition, locating film sites or preparation and business meetings. The visit purposes listed above are subject to approval from the competent authorities.
Visa for Foreign Visitors | Indonesian Consulate General - Sydney
And more here

Quote:
Overstaying your Visa

Overstaying any type of visa is a serious offense if you have overstayed more than 60 days. If less than 60 days, you will fined Rp 200,000/day for every day you overstayed your visa and then deported once you have paid the fine. The maximum fine for overstaying a visa is Rp 25 million and 5 years in jail. If you inadvertently overstay, go IMMEDIATELY to the immigration officer at the airport once you realize it and explain the circumstances. Delaying the report will only make the situation worse.

*There are only a few legitimate reasons for overstaying your visa - the main one being that you were ill and in the hospital or unable to travel. Once you realize you will not be able to leave before your visa expires, ask a friend to officially report your illness in writing to the local immigration office so that you officially acknowledge that you have overstayed your legal stay limit. This will lessen the monetary penalties. Don't wait until the immigration catches you!
http://www.expat.or.id/info/docs.html#overstay
* I would think adverse weather conditions endangering vessel and crew safety would be a legitimate reason as well, and if you hadnt overstayed your Visa by 60 days, fine not jail as you claimed, seems to be the outcome.
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Old 28-07-2011, 00:57   #129
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Re: How Sare Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by lorenzo b View Post
Read all that fine print you sent us, it's not objective research, it's a sales pitch by someone selling boats.
I've only just joined this discussion forum,so I hope I'm placing this article in the correct area.Commercial motor vessels, unlike mono sailing vessels with a fixed/well weighted keel, require continual assessment as to their ability to be selfrighting.Their internal ballast in the form of cargo(fish in this case)needs to be stored pretty low.If you're using this trawler as a pleasure craft,you might consider lead or other cheaper ballast weights to ensure it is selfrighting.
Goodluck
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Old 28-07-2011, 01:25   #130
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Re: How Sare Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by Ian Calvert View Post
I've only just joined this discussion forum,so I hope I'm placing this article in the correct area.Commercial motor vessels, unlike mono sailing vessels with a fixed/well weighted keel, require continual assessment as to their ability to be selfrighting.Their internal ballast in the form of cargo fish in this case)needs to be stored pretty low.If you're using this trawler as a pleasure craft,you might consider lead or other cheaper ballast weights to ensure it is selfrighting.
Goodluck
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Well thank you Ian. I'ts taken 129 posts before someone has given me the answer I was looking for. From what I can gather the work boats are pretty stable and the load forms part of the ballast. I see no reason why a work boat style trawler could not return an AVS as good as a sailboat with sufficient lead down low and still having room below the normal deck level for accommodation etc without the windage of the specialist passagemakers that were never intended to be work boats.

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Old 28-07-2011, 01:55   #131
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Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?

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A wave comes along and flips it over.
Are you saying it can't happen?
Surely cat are less likely the capsize, but when they do they will stay capsized.
When a steel trawler sinks it will stay sunk. And they are MUCH more likely to sink. Your point being?

As for how seaworthy trawlers are, REAL trawlers (the ones that catch fish) are often out there in horrendous conditions - they must be fairly capable.
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Old 28-07-2011, 05:23   #132
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by ChristiGrab View Post
Let's recap: Somewhere in this thread I made the point that there is more to a passagemaking trawler than just carrying enough fuel. There needs to be a full displacement design, weighted keel, and reinforced hull for safety in big seas. Also, because of the lack of sails, the engine needs to be extra robust and not vulnerable to any sort of weaknesses that will disable it. Among the items I listed as weaknesses were a wet exhaust system because sucking in a plastic bag or jellyfish could be catastrophic.

psneeld said above:

Um, in the diesel engine maintenance and repair training class I took when we first got our boat, I was taught that if a plastic bag was sucked into a wet exhaust system, the engine temperature would get really high. The heat could cause the exhaust system to breaks down and allow flooding, or the engine could get so hot that it could catch fire. I would call either result "catastrophic."

Didn't you say fires and floods were the most common sea disasters? Maybe if more people had dry exhaust systems, there wouldn't as many floods and fires?

Let's say you are diligent on watch and notice the engine temperature rising. You realize there is something in the exhaust pipe and shut down the engine. You are crossing the Pacific and the swells are 10 feet with 4 foot wind chop waves. You jump in to remove the plastic bag. Because of the serious wave action, you crack your head on the swim platform and die. I would call that catastrophic.

As I have said and will continue to say, it is better to have a safe system to start with so the catastrophe never comes.

As an FYI, we have 4 bilge pumps aboard. Automatic low and high water pumps, a manual pump and the aforementioned battery powered one that could be wired into the onboard electrical system.
Dry exhausts or the "dry" portion of a wet exhaust have caused more fires than probably any reason on a diesel boat.

Your "instructor" may have been knowlegeable...but like many "courses" it didn't teach the reality between the lines or cover everything you learn after a lifetime of boating, cruising and a real life safety at sea career.

You should read the thread on whether its better to take a sailing course or get it from experience when first starting out....neither camp is totally correct...but some good points are made for both.
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Old 28-07-2011, 05:35   #133
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Re: How Sare Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by Eleebana View Post
Well thank you Ian. I'ts taken 129 posts before someone has given me the answer I was looking for. From what I can gather the work boats are pretty stable and the load forms part of the ballast. I see no reason why a work boat style trawler could not return an AVS as good as a sailboat with sufficient lead down low and still having room below the normal deck level for accommodation etc without the windage of the specialist passagemakers that were never intended to be work boats.

Greg
Many ships have used tanks to increase stability....in the older days when fuel tanks emptied and bad weather approached...many would flood the fuel tanks...messy but better than capsizing!

Drastic measures often are necessary....once in a hurricane off Mexico the skipper wanted to jettison my helo for stability ...lucky for all we made calmer water quicker than we thought we would...
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Old 28-07-2011, 05:48   #134
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Re: How Sare Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by Eleebana View Post
Well thank you Ian. I'ts taken 129 posts before someone has given me the answer I was looking for. From what I can gather the work boats are pretty stable and the load forms part of the ballast. I see no reason why a work boat style trawler could not return an AVS as good as a sailboat with sufficient lead down low and still having room below the normal deck level for accommodation etc without the windage of the specialist passagemakers that were never intended to be work boats.

Greg
Many commercial workboats have been modified by untrained owners, captains and/or boatyards. Be careful just "assuming" that because they have been in commercial service they are safe.

Many a commercial has rolled due to alterations....have a stability test on any vessel that has been altered after the initial build and certainly after you modify it for pleasure use.
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Old 28-07-2011, 07:52   #135
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

Quote "Well thank you Ian. I'ts taken 129 posts before someone has given me the answer I was looking for."
If you wait around for the answer you were looking for your not going to learn much. Why bother asking the question?
The first response you got said it all.
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