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Old 28-07-2011, 07:53   #136
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

Cat Man Do said: Here is some more information for you, this time, from the Indonesian Consulate...I would think adverse weather conditions endangering vessel and crew safety would be a legitimate reason as well, and if you hadnt overstayed your Visa by 60 days, fine not jail as you claimed, seems to be the outcome."

As I mentioned in a previous post, the Indonesian government had a problem with foreign Muslim extremist terrorists blowing up embassies, hotels, schools, etc. They had what, a dozen attacks in only four or five years? The government responded by severely tightening visa guidelines. In 2008, it was hard to get a visa and almost impossible to get an extension. It is now 2011. Things could have changed. I cannot believe you had the audacity to call me a liar when I said that when we were there in 2008, we were told we'd be jailed if we didn't leave and that another sailboat crew was indeed arrested for returning due to big seas.

And its possible things are still the same as they were there. Here is another excerpt from my upcoming book "Unfortunately, there wasn’t as much information available on cruising in Indonesia as there has been for the other places we’ve visited, and the little bits we’ve gotten on check in/out, rules, regulations, bonds, fees, places boats were allowed to visit, etc. has all been conflicting. We’ve gotten the impression the rules change with the whims of the people in uniform at each locale. The only thing we’re sure of is that dealing with the officials promised to be an interesting experience."
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Old 28-07-2011, 07:59   #137
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

psneeld: Were the points I made about the wet exhaust system weaknesses valid or not? You dismissed my points altogether and didn't say one way or another. Are you now willing to admit that a catastrophic failure is indeed POSSIBLE on a wet exhaust system?

Quote:
Dry exhausts or the "dry" portion of a wet exhaust have caused more fires than probably any reason on a diesel boat.
I'd like to see some statistics to back this point up.

markpierce: awesome points!
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Old 28-07-2011, 08:18   #138
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Re: By the book...

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Originally Posted by Boracay View Post
By the book, or in this case Wikipedia, a trawler is a boat that trawls ...
... Modern trawlers are large, powerful and tow huge nets...
Power boat hull designs can be broadly categorized into three different types: displacement hulls, semi-displacement hulls, and planing hulls.
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Old 28-07-2011, 08:35   #139
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

psneeld, one more question, this time regarding this quote:
Quote:
Your "instructor" may have been knowlegeable...but like many "courses" it didn't teach the reality between the lines or cover everything you learn after a lifetime of boating, cruising and a real life safety at sea career. You should read the thread on whether its better to take a sailing course or get it from experience when first starting out....
Do you really think that I would have been better off learning how to maintain and repair a diesel engine by figuring it out for myself while at sea???? Are you high? Once again, as I have said several times now, I stand by my opinion that a proper system prevents catastrophes in the first place. Now I will add to it that knowing how to properly maintain and repaid this system before you leave port is equally important. It is becoming clearer and clearer to me why you have had to deal with so many catastrophes in your years at sea.
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Old 28-07-2011, 08:39   #140
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by ChristiGrab View Post
psneeld: Were the points I made about the wet exhaust system weaknesses valid or not? You dismissed my points altogether and didn't say one way or another. Are you now willing to admit that a catastrophic failure is indeed POSSIBLE on a wet exhaust system?



I'd like to see some statistics to back this point up.

markpierce: awesome points!
I'll introduce you to the man I saved from the last diesel fire I personally witnessed ...turbo oil fitting spraying on poorly jacketed end of exhaust manifold...that was back in 1989 or so..the last NEAR fire I was personally involved in was a 3176 in a Sea Ray 54 that lost a coolant hose....engine overheated but no real fire...so you can see diesel problems are neither common or catastrophic in many cases...the LAST catastrophic one was due to poor design of an exhaust system that had too much dry exhaust portion.

While I'm waiting for his response...I'll do a little research....

Or like much internet wisdom...you might just have to believe a guy who spent over 30 years of his life responding to boating emergencies...20+ coast guard and 10 with a salvage company. That's not including the rest where I was just a cruiser and being on/near the water.
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Old 28-07-2011, 08:45   #141
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

The purpose of this thread is NOT to conduct a personal battle over your respective abilities or lack there of but to discuss the safety aspects of Trawlers in big seas.

Anymore and the thread will be closed.
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Old 28-07-2011, 08:50   #142
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

Here's a lead in paragraph from a company that specializes in dry exhausts for marine diesels...

"Dry exhaust systems are not very common in the typical marine vessel used in recreational service. There are many reasons why you do not see them although, in many cases, they do have desirable features when designed and installed correctly. A dry exhaust system can add considerable costs, is usually more complex as to proper design, fabrication and installation, and can be a dangerous fire hazard if the design and installation is not 100%. What many operators and builders DO NOT understand is the approx 1/3 of the total energy (heat) that comes from the fuel that is consumed by a diesel engine is expelled as heat thru the exhaust system, and this heat must be contained and then exit the vessel safely. With a water cooled exhaust (wet systems), controlling and dissipating this heat is much simpler."

I have learned through the years that simpler is often better when hundreds of miles from land....

Well...I'm not 100 percent that dry stacks need to be complicated...but as you can see BOTH systems can have drawbacks....one with dry stacks is definitely fire and fire at sea is bad.
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Old 28-07-2011, 08:51   #143
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Re: How safe are trawlers in big seas?

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
This isn't the company that I remember advertising in the magazines, but there are more than one company that makes self righting ocean crossing motorboats if you don't like the other kind.

ellingmotoryachts.com
They seem to be safe yachts but I am not sure with their fuel capacity if they are really ocean crossing. The brochures seem to be really emphasizing creature comforts rather than seaworthyness.
Krogen Yachts makes several different size trawlers that regularly cross the oceans
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Old 28-07-2011, 09:00   #144
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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But I have also worked in sailboat engine rooms with far more sophicated filtration and lube systems than you show.
Seriously. The filtration system in those photos is a step down from the one on my sailboat.

Don't forget, when the fuel is sloshing around in our boats, it's doing it at a 15 degree heel.

All oceangoing yachts need a good filtration system. Some trawlers have this, and some sailboats have this. And too many yachts of either type have cut this corner.
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Old 28-07-2011, 09:28   #145
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristiGrab View Post
psneeld: Were the points I made about the wet exhaust system weaknesses valid or not? You dismissed my points altogether and didn't say one way or another. Are you now willing to admit that a catastrophic failure is indeed POSSIBLE on a wet exhaust system?



I'd like to see some statistics to back this point up.

markpierce: awesome points!
From my experience...most wet system failures give enough warning to prevent catastrophic damage unless your sensor system is out or you are deaf (or stand lousy watches)

Again from my experience...dry systems are no safer if the same safety sensors or maintenance is neglected.

The funny thing is we both agree that trawlers in general are safe enough to cross oceans. No one design is necessarily the ONLY one that can do it and many without severe mods should probably avoid trying it.

We both believe that properly designed and maintained systems are important...but there is always more than one way to do/design things.

And lastly...vigilance is the key to avoiding ANY at sea disaster...no matter what you are driving , how it is put together and how it is maintained. EXPERIENCE in the hands of the right person is essential to heading off minor problems that can become major...
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Old 28-07-2011, 10:20   #146
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

WARNING, PLEASE READ - I don't usually re-post these but... If someone comes to your front door, and asks you to remove your clothes, and dance in your front yard with your arms in the air.. DO NOT do this, it is a scam!! They just want to see you naked. Please copy and post this to your status -- I wish I had received this yesterday.... I feel so stupid now.
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Old 28-07-2011, 13:48   #147
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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WARNING, PLEASE READ - I don't usually re-post these but... If someone comes to your front door, and asks you to remove your clothes, and dance in your front yard with your arms in the air.. DO NOT do this, it is a scam!! They just want to see you naked. Please copy and post this to your status -- I wish I had received this yesterday.... I feel so stupid now.
Thanks for the warning, I just had some hot chick come to my front door and ask me to do that. I thought she was one of the Jehovah's Witnesses or an encyclopedia salesperson so I slammed the door on her.
Whew, dodged another bullet!
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Old 28-07-2011, 15:37   #148
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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I'll introduce you to the man I saved from the last diesel fire I personally witnessed ...turbo oil fitting spraying on poorly jacketed end of exhaust manifold...that was back in 1989 or so..the last NEAR fire I was personally involved in was a 3176 in a Sea Ray 54 that lost a coolant hose....engine overheated but no real fire...so you can see diesel problems are neither common or catastrophic in many cases...the LAST catastrophic one was due to poor design of an exhaust system that had too much dry exhaust portion.
So you don't consider those two incidents "catastrophic"? Are you telling me that if they were 1000 miles offshore and all alone without your help or equipment, they would have been fine and able to continue the passage?

There is huge difference offshore, what may be no big deal near shore where help is available is a very BIG deal when well offshore and no one is coming to help.

I have to completely agree with ChristiGrab on all points. Also there is no comparison between a Sea Ray and an Ocean crossing passagemaker. When you are making a real passage in open ocean you want all systems designed for the task.

Edit: I forgot to add that a "poor design of an exhaust system" is not an argument against dry stack. Any "poor design of an exhaust system" is a bad thing prone to failure. A properly designed dry stack will always be more reliable than a properly designed wet exhaust by nature of how the two operate.
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Old 28-07-2011, 15:41   #149
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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Originally Posted by lorenzo b
WARNING, PLEASE READ - I don't usually re-post these but... If someone comes to your front door, and asks you to remove your clothes, and dance in your front yard with your arms in the air.. DO NOT do this, it is a scam!! They just want to see you naked. Please copy and post this to your status -- I wish I had received this yesterday.... I feel so stupid now.


Same thing happened to me on my boat! I don't have a front yard, so I took off all my clothes and danced around on the boat. Soon these really nice guys in white uniforms came and took me away. I enjoyed a couple of days of rest and relaxation in an air-conditioned room with funny padded walls. Some kind of resort or spa I think. Not bad. They gave me free food. Some really nice people talked to me and asked me about my childhood. Then they said I could go home, but not to worry because I would probably be back again someday. I wonder what they meant by that? LOL
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Old 28-07-2011, 15:59   #150
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Re: How Safe Are Trawlers in Big Seas ?

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If this is true about the trawler you are thinking about then you have sort of answered your own question I think....

Because a boat that will neither float nor right itself sounds like an unsafe option in my book...
Fair enough, but the Queen Mary will do neither.
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