Helicopters and Motor Yachts

[Seachase]

Thanks for the clarification Red Sky. I was conjuring up all sorts of images.

[micksbuddy]

Or how about this? It's not even finished yet, so he can customize it to his particular tastes!

Drop in the ocean: 250 foot yacht complete with its own helicopter pad all for just $67 MILLION | Mail Online

[noelex 77]

A helicopter would be seriously cool. It is only money.

The perfect tender? No concern over the davits cracking

However, not totally without problems

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A helicopter would be seriously cool. It is only money.

The perfect tender? No concern over the davits cracking

However, not totally without problems

And you don't have to worry if you should leave your outboard up and that if you do is someone going to put it down while you're away

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A helicopter would be seriously cool. It is only money.

The perfect tender? No concern over the davits cracking

However, not totally without problems

Choppers are never without problems. They are technically aerodynamically incorrect. That whole swash plate design gives me pause. The fact that you are hanging in the air by a single nut makes me uncomfortable. You can't glide if you loose power. Sure, you can "auto-rotate & hard land", but hard land is just a polite word for crashing, in my humble opinion. Add to that the operator workload demands & you have a formula for disaster. When you fly those things, both hands & both feet are constantly working to keep her in the air. If you are in a hover & you take one hand off of one control long enough to change a radio station, chances are that you will flip over & crash. Forget about pulling charts out of a bag & figuring a new course while in-flight. If the chart isn't strapped to your knee pad before you take off, you're probably not going to have access to it until you land.

The last time that I flew a chopper was probably 20 years ago. I stick to fixed wing craft these days.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

Choppers are never without problems. They are technically aerodynamically incorrect. That whole swash plate design gives me pause. The fact that you are hanging in the air by a single nut makes me uncomfortable. You can't glide if you loose power. Sure, you can "auto-rotate & hard land", but hard land is just a polite word for crashing, in my humble opinion. Add to that the operator workload demands & you have a formula for disaster. When you fly those things, both hands & both feet are constantly working to keep her in the air. If you are in a hover & you take one hand off of one control long enough to change a radio station, chances are that you will flip over & crash. Forget about pulling charts out of a bag & figuring a new course while in-flight. If the chart isn't strapped to your knee pad before you take off, you're probably not going to have access to it until you land.

The last time that I flew a chopper was probably 20 years ago. I stick to fixed wing craft these days.

So, so much of what you say is wrong in so many ways, I don't even know where to start, so I won't

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

Choppers are never without problems. They are technically aerodynamically incorrect. That whole swash plate design gives me pause. The fact that you are hanging in the air by a single nut makes me uncomfortable. You can't glide if you loose power. Sure, you can "auto-rotate & hard land", but hard land is just a polite word for crashing, in my humble opinion. Add to that the operator workload demands & you have a formula for disaster. When you fly those things, both hands & both feet are constantly working to keep her in the air. If you are in a hover & you take one hand off of one control long enough to change a radio station, chances are that you will flip over & crash. Forget about pulling charts out of a bag & figuring a new course while in-flight. If the chart isn't strapped to your knee pad before you take off, you're probably not going to have access to it until you land.

The last time that I flew a chopper was probably 20 years ago. I stick to fixed wing craft these days.

Don't tell that to my friend, who is doing a circumnavigation in a tiny Robinson R66. I have spent a fair amount of time in helicopters, myself, and I love them. If I had time and money for another hobby (ha, ha, ha!) I would love to have a helicopter. What a way to explore the world, and I totally get how cool it would be to have one on your boat - the ultimate tender indeed, but of course
, way out of my reach, so maybe something for the next lifetime

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Dockhead….. this has been my business as Build Captain, Project Manager and Owner’s Representative of large Superyachts (<50m).
Mostly retired now, I have worked for the same clients for over 28 years.

So here are a few organizational thoughts:

New Projects like this go thru 4 Stages:
Conceptual/Feasibility/Bid Package/Production

Your friend’s father is experienced enough in travel logistics to know what he wants so first step is to develop a detailed Owner’s Brief for the conceptual stage. (I actually use a questionnaire for that prior to my first meeting)

Same time, a focused inspection of existing boats that may meet the brief, to organize ideas and see what concepts do not work in reality or due to poor execution.

Helicopters are great on large yachts as they allow efficient access to interest points while keeping mother-ship in a better anchorage. Also facilitates frequent airport runs and is a good emergency and prospecting tool. They also enhance resale value.

Heli-solutions break down to these, depending on various priorities and cruising plans:

1 Landing Only:
Owner uses own for local cruising and lease/charter for other world areas.
I finished a project in 2011 that was for landing a 5 seat Augusta on a 55m yacht… (Could actually land 2 Helis… Smaller one landed just fwd. of bridge)…. This owner flies his own as does his friends. Solution was to convert a heavy commercial hull to a yacht----change from dry stack to wet exhaust and design a yacht body kit and fairing. Brief did not include carrying Heli offshore, but only for coastal hops when weather was reasonable.

2 Onboard Storage… this can be accomplished in a few ways .
a…Removable but structurally sound covers to be erected on helipad for transport (LOA still 55m)
b…Fixed dedicated Hanger positioned Fwd. of landing deck (LOA 73-80m)
c….If client will accept less payload by using a Rotor Folding Kit, then an aft deck landing with gantry or elevator to fold and store below decks is another solution for Ocean passage makers.

Yacht Displacement is more of a design/stability issue than length, so hull choice (steel) is important and a deep draft commercial conversion or exploration type new build design can give the client the heavy footprint and understated luxury and utility that they may prefer.

Most clients new to yachts do not realize that hull and machinery costs are only 10-15% of overall new build costs so they un-necessarily restrict themselves in length during the initial conceptual phase when brainstorming and deciding on the traffic flows and layout.

Keep the length/profile open until you begin the Feasibility Study and design from inside out…. (Form following Function) This is where we usually end up reducing accommodation areas and length when studying ergonomics and by creating simple mock-ups.

The Feasibility Stage is also when full engineering and naval architectural/structural criteria is developed in detail as part of the build specifications. Along with a complete maker’s list and interior design with list of materials, this forms the meat of the detailed Bid Package.

Quite often loose specifications full of good intent are promoted by both the Builder and your Architect-Designer who view themselves as professional colleagues rather than the Owner’s contracted employees.

Job of a Project Manager, is to provide all parties with the info needed so that both the Builder and Owner can make an informed decision

The best advice I can give your friend’s dad is to spend serious money upfront on this Stage before contract delivery pressures and design deficiencies move Change-Order Costs from 2% to industry average of 35%.

The goal is to do your homework to allow builders to quote a fair contractual fixed price (no allowances except nav-com entertainment) and more importantly the client will know exactly what he is getting with no wriggle room due to client’s lack of specified detail.

Re the philanthropic use.... there are foundations already set up for this

Extremely valuable advice - thanks a lot (and to the other constructive posters). Some real pearls of wisdom here.

I am realizing how very hard to design this is. I'm also starting to think how right is the idea to do some kind of expedition vessel - maybe conversion of a co mercial vessel. This guy doesn't want any glitz, and if the hull and machinery is such a small part of the cost, then a reasonably large vessel with a modest fit out might be just the thing.

Hmmm.

[Ryan H]

For a superbly detailed walk through of an unpretentious designed yacht complete with helicopter and landing pad see the Bill Murray film The Life Aquatic, Sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for. :-P

[IdoraKeeper]

Don't forget tankage for jet A.....better be spec for the Eurocopter. Much higher gross wt.

[FlyingCloud1937]

How about this?




1981 John Manly Custom Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.comYear:1981Length:140'Engine/Fuel Type:Twin Located In:San Diego, CAHull Material:AluminumYW#:1397-2390444 Current Price:US$ 4,900,000

Lestralaur was built in 1981 and originally launched as the M.V. James Sinclair for the Canadian Fisheries Department to be used as a high speed patrol boat capable of negotiating the rough waters of the Pacific North West. Re christened as the Lestralaur and 90% of the conversion into a luxury expedition yacht complete, Lestralaur has all the bells and whistles you could possibly imagine. She was lengthened to 140’, re powered with brand new MTU 12V 4000 main engines, and fitted with new stabilizers, bow and stern thrusters, plus many other mechanical and electrical upgrades. Lestralaur was also modified to accommodate a helicopter. She has the range to reach the farthest, most remote locations on the planet.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A great friend of mine, who is member, I guess you would say, of the Lucky Sperm Club, since his father is a billionaire, has already finished his car phase (the culmination of which was winning the rally sport championship of a large European country), and is nearing the end of his helicopter phase (he's in the middle of a circumnavigation of the world by helicopter by way of Tierra del Fuego, Alaska, Bering Straits, etc.). He's just about to start his yacht phase. I have not managed to get him interested in sailing yet, although I think this is natural and will eventually come, but he's ready for a motor yacht, at least, but on one condition -- it has to be able to accommodate his helicopter -- a Robinson turbine job, which might get traded in for a Eurocopter after the circumnav is over.

He has turned to me for advice, not realizing that being a sailor does not mean that I know even diddlysquat about motor yachts, much less giant gigayachts. He is from a family which does not believe in ostentatious displays of wealth, and he will not want a Roman Abramovich-style megayacht. But what size does a motor yacht have to be, in order to have a decent helipad??? I can't even imagine. This is a very, very different task, than trying to figure out what kind of davits are needed to safely carry a 25 horsepower RIB (ha, ha, ha!!).

One idea I had, to avoid the vulgar Roman Abramovich type of situation, was that he might like to have some kind of expedition vessel. He could donate the use of it for scientific expeditions when not using it himself, and it would suit his values and lifestyle. But in this, as in megayachts, I am utterly clueless -- anyone here have any words of wisdom?

[k9medic]

The setup all depends on the weight of the helicopter. An R66 (4 place turbine Robinson helicopter) or Bell 206 jet ranger weighs between 2800-3200 lbs fully loaded.

A Eurocopter EC130 tips the scales a around 5Klbs at max load. Run that on up to 6400lbs for a twin engine EC135 or if you really have some coin, a EC155 weighs 10,692lbs.

Sure, you can "auto-rotate & hard land", but hard land is just a polite word for crashing, in my humble opinion.

I've had the "pleasure" of three engine failures in helicopter and was fortunate that each one only required a change of an engine and a new pair of underwear.

[psneeld]

Something as major as a helo aboard will require the big question first? What helo model????

They vary greatly in weight, rotor diameter and size so different models will require different support vessels. The USCG helo I flew for awhile was heavy enough on a 210 foot USCG cutter, we almost had to jettison the helo during one hurricane we went through.

If planning on flying in remote areas...then the whole decision of refueling aboard and tankage aboard is necessary to factor in.

If landing while underway versus static is planned...I'm sure insurance companies will be interested...heck my life insurance company wanted to know where I landed regularly...my life insurance broker almost cried when I told him remote ice floes, icebergs, dozens of ship types, light tower pads, remote mountain tops, glaciers, etc...etc...so I can't imagine what a yacht insurance guy might want too!!!

Just deciding how strong to make the flight deck for landing depending on sea states and weight of the aircraft I'm sure is nearly as complicated as designing the hull itself.

Safety systems are pretty involved for underway operation but I do know of some yachts that just have decks installed for transport...not actual helo ops...they are craned on/off when travelling.

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

Choppers are never without problems. They are technically aerodynamically incorrect. That whole swash plate design gives me pause. The fact that you are hanging in the air by a single nut makes me uncomfortable. You can't glide if you loose power. Sure, you can "auto-rotate & hard land", but hard land is just a polite word for crashing, in my humble opinion. Add to that the operator workload demands & you have a formula for disaster. When you fly those things, both hands & both feet are constantly working to keep her in the air. If you are in a hover & you take one hand off of one control long enough to change a radio station, chances are that you will flip over & crash. Forget about pulling charts out of a bag & figuring a new course while in-flight. If the chart isn't strapped to your knee pad before you take off, you're probably not going to have access to it until you land.

The last time that I flew a chopper was probably 20 years ago. I stick to fixed wing craft these days.

What bull...my instructor in flight school would make bets with me that after autorotating in a ancient Jet ranger, how high we could fly it back vertically after initial auto touchdown and still land back softly with the engine still spooled down....sometime were were easily back up 15 feet.

In the USCG we did full engine idle instrument only autos to the water under the instrument hood....we all learned to slide them on like sliding on glass...even in several foot seas.

Comments like these after so many private pilots crash trying to do something simple like VFR flying a Cessna are ridiculous considering the millions of hours rotary wing fly in complete safety every year.

The simplification of rotor heads the last decade or two is significant and has had major reductions in rotary wing accidents. Computerization, autopilots, stability control, ad nauseum make helo flying much simples, less stressful or fatiguing.....

Sure... fly the rotary wing equivalent of a hang glider (probably not the model a guy whose gonna put a yacht under it)...and you have you hands full...but really only if you make it that way.

[socaldmax]

I really think he is going to need two helipads.

What if he has a friend come visit who flies out in his own helicopter, but the owner's helicopter is already parked on the helipad? What does he do? Tell his friend, "Sorry, but you can't come out to visit, I only have one helipad!"

That will never do!