Helicopters and Motor Yachts

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by FlyingCloud1937

How about this?




1981 John Manly Custom Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.comYear:1981Length:140'Engine/Fuel Type:Twin Located In:San Diego, CAHull Material:AluminumYW#:1397-2390444 Current Price:US$ 4,900,000

Lestralaur was built in 1981 and originally launched as the M.V. James Sinclair for the Canadian Fisheries Department to be used as a high speed patrol boat capable of negotiating the rough waters of the Pacific North West. Re christened as the Lestralaur and 90% of the conversion into a luxury expedition yacht complete, Lestralaur has all the bells and whistles you could possibly imagine. She was lengthened to 140’, re powered with brand new MTU 12V 4000 main engines, and fitted with new stabilizers, bow and stern thrusters, plus many other mechanical and electrical upgrades. Lestralaur was also modified to accommodate a helicopter. She has the range to reach the farthest, most remote locations on the planet.

Fabulous! Thanks a lot. Really just what I had in mind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Running a helicopter is expensive. Perhaps some tips here may help :

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...-ii-79067.html

LOL!

Yes, that advice is closer to my heart.

As to the cost of running helicopters -- my friend has two of them, so I don't think he needs any advice from me

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Not as difficult as you might think to do this.

However, quality fit out, even without all the glitz, is still not cheap!

So identifying the right Yard, at the right time in their management evolution, is easier if you provide all the engineering details I discussed in a Feasibility Study…..

For this allows you to compare apples with apples in assessing each Builder’s ability to execute.
(I was often told that our Bid package provided them with more engineering info than they had on super yachts they were actually building)

To achieve this feasibility detail, you just need to put together the right team of qualified consultants and keep them outside the bid process so that there is no collusion between them and the Builder during negotiations. (I even took myself out of handling communications until we had shortlisted the Bid Replies)

For major decisions …you start with the key requests by the Owner that will drive the design decisions:

For example if quietness underway is a key element where you want to achieve NOISE TARGETS of 40-45db just forward on the engine room at 12 knots, then you cannot cost effectively achieve that with a commercial conversions.
(It is like trying to provide a quiet Bentley ride by converting a dump truck)
http://www.audiology.org/practice/re...Chart16x20.pdf

To achieve 42dba levels as above, it means floating floors and bulkheads, structural design to reduce harmonics and a layout that will diffuse propeller pulses.
So that rules out a commercial conversion and you focus on a new hull, which gives you a clean slate of many more options.

To be a good Owner’s Rep/Build Captain… You need to have achieved the practical experience at sea in command to garner team respect to help guide them towards cost effective solutions.

Often that means compromises
Since solutions need to look after the often disparate needs of:
The 4 Crew Departments/ the Owner-Owner’s Wife/ Builder’s Standard of Execution and quite often Designer’s Egos.

It can be a fun process and if done right, the actual building phase is pretty anticlimactic and you have a much better chance of giving both the Owners and Crew, with what they want at a better price.

I've built high-rise hotels, so I understand all of these concepts -- as does my friend, who has invested in some of them.

After twenty-odd years in the business, I do agree with you about designing and planning to the n-th degree before you start building -- that's the way we do it with high rise buildings. Only way you can avoid chaos, and contractors screwing you, all of which is expensive and time-consuming. Our tender packages contain 40% of the volume of working drawings. Managing a project like this would be no different at all, and we would certainly choose a top pro who works the same way to do it -- in case he ends up wanting to build or major refit something.

[Adelie]

He could go ONE down one of the routes Paul Allen took:

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Adelie

He could go ONE down one of the routes Paul Allen took:

Lol! We built that. They wouldn't rezone Paul's mansion so he could land heli's there, but it's legal to land them on a boat anywhere. Right after we finished building Cascadia, which was built for one of his closest business associates, we cranked that out for him. He is now rezoned and the heli barge is no longer needed, but I think he's still using it. Must be nice to be rich enough to thumb your nose at the zoning committee like that! However, that is not a real boat and was not designed to function as such. I don't think it's left the end of his dock since it was built, which was the intention all along. Notice how it looks vaguely similar to Cascadia, down to the paint color? There are reasons!

[Tayana42]

I am still trying to figure out where to store my Honda EU 2000i on deck. Will look for space for helipad next.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

Last I checked, a little R-22 (Hyundai of the sky for rotor-craft) was about $150/hour wet, after you amortized in your maintenance costs. That was several years ago.

Yes, but go for a four seat turbine and the fuel burn alone is probably about 40 gls an hour, then put it on a boat in salt water. Lots of magnesium in helicopter gearboxes for example, and magnesium and salt don't mix well.
Hint, you'll never see a "Sea Apache" and capabilities has nothing to do with it, it'll work wonderful for six months then corrosion will do it in.
You have to corrosion protect a helicopter in the design phase, Sikorsky has done wonderful with this, Hughes / McDonald / Boeing hasn't. I don't know in Commercial helicopters who has, but needs to be a consideration.

[socaldmax]

I'm learning how to fly an RC quadrotor, pretty fun, fairly stable. But then it dawned on me, my living room or front lawn isn't pitching and rolling like a yacht would, even aircraft carriers pitch and roll in heavy seas.

Maybe your friend should invest in two gyro stabilized helo platforms to make it easier to land in difficult conditions.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by minaret

Lol! We built that. They wouldn't rezone Paul's mansion so he could land heli's there, but it's legal to land them on a boat anywhere. Right after we finished building Cascadia, which was built for one of his closest business associates, we cranked that out for him. He is now rezoned and the heli barge is no longer needed, but I think he's still using it. Must be nice to be rich enough to thumb your nose at the zoning committee like that! However, that is not a real boat and was not designed to function as such. I don't think it's left the end of his dock since it was built, which was the intention all along. Notice how it looks vaguely similar to Cascadia, down to the paint color? There are reasons!

What was the design of the vessel etc. Looks like a 60ft cat.

[dana-tenacity]

Just ask him not to anchor near me. There was one of these in the BoI this summer (helicopter, seaplane, fizz boats, jet skis...), nearly drove me mad wit the noise.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I'm learning how to fly an RC quadrotor, pretty fun, fairly stable. But then it dawned on me, my living room or front lawn isn't pitching and rolling like a yacht would, even aircraft carriers pitch and roll in heavy seas.

Maybe your friend should invest in two gyro stabilized helo platforms to make it easier to land in difficult conditions.

Super Yachts are fitted with either active or passive stabilizers.
Active ones work all the time, even at anchorage.
However you need to be underway for the passive fin type to work.

The reality is that you are never landing Helis in rough conditions
So, if landing conditions are windy and marginal, you recover helicopter underway and yacht is fitted with Glide path lights, landing nets and certified crew on standby with safety and firefighting equipment...

Underway you have more control over providing the pilot with stable wind direction, than they would have landing on a high rise in blustery conditions.

On the management side, usually the 2nd or 3td engineer has certified Helicopter maintenance qualifications

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've built high-rise hotels, so I understand all of these concepts -- as does my friend, who has invested in some of them.

After twenty-odd years in the business, I do agree with you about designing and planning to the n-th degree before you start building -- that's the way we do it with high rise buildings. Only way you can avoid chaos, and contractors screwing you, all of which is expensive and time-consuming. Our tender packages contain 40% of the volume of working drawings. Managing a project like this would be no different at all, and we would certainly choose a top pro who works the same way to do it -- in case he ends up wanting to build or major refit something.

Just keep reminding your friend of that!!!

I often witness a psychological hiccup which yacht owners of all boat sizes (including our sizes) can suffer from…. I think the inner child takes over and in the rarified <50m level even a billionaire can fall victim to all the extremely slick and rarified Super Yacht Hype.

As we all know, …when it comes to our own boat, we sometimes forget all the proper business lessons and acumen that allowed us to afford to buy it.

It requires a strong, trusted, steadying hand like yours, to keep bringing them back to reality and do their Feasibility homework first, rather than rush to acquire based on loose examples of other yachts they have been on.

Not sure if you subscribe to these reports, but they can give you a better idea of the annual €24 billion SY industry

SuperyachtIntelligence | info@superyachtintelligence.com | Reports

[ato]

my neighbors at Royal Langkawi YC a while ago...

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Dockhead….. this has been my business as Build Captain, Project Manager and Owner’s Representative of large Superyachts (<50m).
Mostly retired now, I have worked for the same clients for over 28 years.

So here are a few organizational thoughts:

New Projects like this go thru 4 Stages:
Conceptual/Feasibility/Bid Package/Production

Your friend’s father is experienced enough in travel logistics to know what he wants so first step is to develop a detailed Owner’s Brief for the conceptual stage. (I actually use a questionnaire for that prior to my first meeting)

Same time, a focused inspection of existing boats that may meet the brief, to organize ideas and see what concepts do not work in reality or due to poor execution.

Helicopters are great on large yachts as they allow efficient access to interest points while keeping mother-ship in a better anchorage. Also facilitates frequent airport runs and is a good emergency and prospecting tool. They also enhance resale value.

Heli-solutions break down to these, depending on various priorities and cruising plans:

1 Landing Only:
Owner uses own for local cruising and lease/charter for other world areas.
I finished a project in 2011 that was for landing a 5 seat Augusta on a 55m yacht… (Could actually land 2 Helis… Smaller one landed just fwd. of bridge)…. This owner flies his own as does his friends. Solution was to convert a heavy commercial hull to a yacht----change from dry stack to wet exhaust and design a yacht body kit and fairing. Brief did not include carrying Heli offshore, but only for coastal hops when weather was reasonable.

2 Onboard Storage… this can be accomplished in a few ways .
a…Removable but structurally sound covers to be erected on helipad for transport (LOA still 55m)
b…Fixed dedicated Hanger positioned Fwd. of landing deck (LOA 73-80m)
c….If client will accept less payload by using a Rotor Folding Kit, then an aft deck landing with gantry or elevator to fold and store below decks is another solution for Ocean passage makers.

Yacht Displacement is more of a design/stability issue than length, so hull choice (steel) is important and a deep draft commercial conversion or exploration type new build design can give the client the heavy footprint and understated luxury and utility that they may prefer.

Most clients new to yachts do not realize that hull and machinery costs are only 10-15% of overall new build costs so they un-necessarily restrict themselves in length during the initial conceptual phase when brainstorming and deciding on the traffic flows and layout.

Keep the length/profile open until you begin the Feasibility Study and design from inside out…. (Form following Function) This is where we usually end up reducing accommodation areas and length when studying ergonomics and by creating simple mock-ups.

The Feasibility Stage is also when full engineering and naval architectural/structural criteria is developed in detail as part of the build specifications. Along with a complete maker’s list and interior design with list of materials, this forms the meat of the detailed Bid Package.

Quite often loose specifications full of good intent are promoted by both the Builder and your Architect-Designer who view themselves as professional colleagues rather than the Owner’s contracted employees.

Job of a Project Manager, is to provide all parties with the info needed so that both the Builder and Owner can make an informed decision

The best advice I can give your friend’s dad is to spend serious money upfront on this Stage before contract delivery pressures and design deficiencies move Change-Order Costs from 2% to industry average of 35%.

The goal is to do your homework to allow builders to quote a fair contractual fixed price (no allowances except nav-com entertainment) and more importantly the client will know exactly what he is getting with no wriggle room due to client’s lack of specified detail.

Re the philanthropic use.... there are foundations already set up for this

Well said. I would add that I have a friend who is a retired Marine rotary wing pilot. I went to him a couple of years ago on a similar question. He said that the danger of off shore ship board ops can not be over stated. If it is only used for airport runs from protected anchorages in good wx it might be reasonable.

[Pelagic]

What I loved about my profession was having the resources and access to find the best consultants to study and identify great solutions for what many thought were impossible ideas.

The fun part of the conceptual stage, is that there are no stupid requests and you dream about then study various options to inform the client where the practical limits and trade-offs are.

For Example: the big yachts carry large heavy multifunctional tenders, so that the Owners don’t look like they have been whitewater rafting on shore trips.

In the design brief we study Roll-on-roll-off.../flooded docking…/or heavy lift solutions in concert with the traffic flow and multifunctional uses.

We then develop a hull for preferred solution and tank test hull performance and dynamic stability during feasibility studies.

Same with helicopters.
If the desire is for an exploration type yacht to remote atolls it pretty much requires that you allow for an environmentally protected service hanger.

This area can also serve as an air-conditioned Theatre/Gym or whatever…. when heli is not in storage/service hanger.

These are some examples of early concept ideas of hiding the hanger’s profile in between Engine room Ducting with a 3 helicopter position, or a sliding gantry to lower straight down if they accepted a folding kit.

Pushing the envelope is what these business world leaders like to do and I get to be part of it in finding concepts and then research what I can live with as the Captain.

To be honest… I would do this for free…