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Old 10-06-2013, 06:23   #1
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Fleming or Selene

Have owned a sailing vessel (mono hull) for apprx 30 years and am now looking to move to the dark side and venture into and with a trawler. I'm seeking recommendations as to which vessel - Selene or Fleming (55' to 60') for say travelling from the NW Passage of Canada down through the Panama Canal to the West Indies, The Mediterranean Sea and finally back into Australian waters and maybe short cruises to south Pacific Islands. The vessel would be shipped between USA, Mediterranean and Australia. I've been investigating these 2 makes and whilst I would prefer the Fleming, would the hull of the Selene be better for open water passages. Would appreciate some advice.
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Old 10-06-2013, 07:49   #2
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Re: Fleming or Selene

The fleming is a semi-displacement twin screw boat, the Selenes to my understanding are displacement vessels. SO the primary tradeoff, leaving aside the aesthetics, is how fast you want to get from A to B, the relevant ranges of each type and the "fuel costs/time at sea" tradeoff.

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Old 10-06-2013, 07:59   #3
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Re: Fleming or Selene

If you are talking about new, then have a serious conversation with the manufacturer. Get stability data and then hire a naval architect to interpret/analyze for you. You are spending serious bucks and basing a decision on internet advice is silly.

If you are buying used, then you are still spending serious bucks and I would do the same. You might get a bit less support from the manufacturer if you are buying used. Some will try their best, like Nordhavn and some may not. Let your naval architect run interference for you in that case. No one wants a known naval architect to trash their boat for lack of response.

Tad Roberts would be a good choice IMO.

And why aren't you considering a Nordhavn?

David
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:15   #4
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Re: Fleming or Selene

Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
If you are talking about new, then have a serious conversation with the manufacturer. Get stability data and then hire a naval architect to interpret/analyze for you. You are spending serious bucks and basing a decision on internet advice is silly.

If you are buying used, then you are still spending serious bucks and I would do the same. You might get a bit less support from the manufacturer if you are buying used. Some will try their best, like Nordhavn and some may not. Let your naval architect run interference for you in that case. No one wants a known naval architect to trash their boat for lack of response.

Tad Roberts would be a good choice IMO.

And why aren't you considering a Nordhavn?

David

If you have ever dealt with a naval architect , you will know one of the difficulties is deciding your priorities.

Naval architects can be used to interpret manufacturers data, but they cant answer whats important to you the customer.

(a) Are you interested in long open water seas passages, where survivability and range are more important then passage time.

(b) If you intend to ship the boat to its major cruising grounds, then passage speed may be a factor, i.e. no overnight journeys, but daylight ones at 15-20 its. ( This would be characteristic Med boats for example, right up to very big power boats).

(c) Are you planing special purpose expedition voyages, where particular vessels or characteristics of certain vessels may be useful ( high lats, draft issues, simple mechanics).

(d) Do not ignore speed, speed is useful in many cruising areas ( assuming affording the diesel is not the issue !).

I ve travelled in the flemming and owned and delivered several fast semi -displacement and planing hull motorboats, there is a very wide trade-off between different types of vessels and you need to characterise your expected use. Then a naval architect can be quite useful.

PS a Nordhavn and a Flemming are very very different vessels designed with different uses in mind.


statements like
Quote:
. Get stability data and then hire a naval architect to interpret/analyze for you.
are meaningless, one stability curve over another is not simply a useful comparison, especially in mo-bos.
Dave
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:27   #5
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Re: Fleming or Selene

As a Selene owner I can attest to the great sea keeping and stability of these vessels in rough conditions. As stated previously the full displacement hull, single engine limits speed (our 47 does max 10.5kt but we typically travel at 7.5-8kt). The big trade off here is 3 nm/gallon!! The fit and finish on both vessels is superb but I think the Selene is a better offshore passagemaker vessel with greater range (we have a 3,000nm range).
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Old 10-06-2013, 18:19   #6
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Re: Fleming or Selene

You must first know how you will use the boat. Then match the boat to the use.There are many similarities and overlapping factors but the major issue as pointed out is in hull type and twin verses single motor. Then the Admiral, If there is one, has to like the particular interior.
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:14   #7
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Re: Fleming or Selene

Funny in 4wd circles the admiral is known as the handbrake.
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:41   #8
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Re: Fleming or Selene

Garcia? Power boat of the year in Europe?
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Old 13-06-2013, 17:22   #9
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I've delivered/sold Flemings and really like the fit and finish, and ride quality. I haven't delivered any Selene's so I can't really comment... Nice fit and finish though...
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Old 18-06-2013, 06:10   #10
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Re: Fleming or Selene

May I respectfully suggest you look at a Nordhavn. Flemings are great fair weather boats, Selenes, well wouldnt go out to sea on one as the build quality is not what it should be.. in fact I understand there is very little work going on at present in the Selene factory - which leaves the bentley of the fleet which is Nordhavn. Bottom line i sif you are caught in bad conditions ie, seas of 10 mtrs then the difference between a Nordhavn, Selene and Fleming could mean you life.

One last point, Fleming talk about out running the weather with their semi displacement hull... well thats all well and good but weather turns quickly and when it does the power comes off a fleming just as fast..... I have passed many a fast boat in bad conditions doing my 9.5kts as they struggle at 6kts to hold their hull together.

I am a nordhavn owner of a N62 hull 20 and I can tell you to not consider Nordhavn would be a mistake.
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Old 18-06-2013, 06:25   #11
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Re: Fleming or Selene

While I agree that Nordhavns are good vessels, I respectfully submit that Pendablog has his head up his ass if he believes that Selenes are not good ocean vessels. There have been any number of long distance and ocean crossing by Selenes. As for 9.5kt vs 6kt, his 62ft hull does have a higher freeboard and longer water line than many other vessels. Clearly bigger is better in bad conditions, but that does not give him the license to beat up on other vessels.
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Old 18-06-2013, 06:33   #12
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Re: Fleming or Selene

Chrisjs, mate, no n eis beating up other boats just saying from my own personal experience after being on all three boats and owning one, which I prefer hands down. Look its not as if it close either the difference between Nordhavns and the other two in question is about the same as comparing a Bentley with a push bike, ok maybe thats is unfair but you get the idea. May I ask, have you been on any of these vessels? Remember you can cross an ocean in a kayak if the conditions are good.
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Old 18-06-2013, 14:04   #13
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Re: Fleming or Selene

If I may add a note of caution to Pendanadog that ragging on one manufacture is not a prudent way of carrying on a discussion when the topic is of other subject. If one feels the need to cut on a brand let them be aware they should know what they are talking about and be prepared to have cuts made of their brand. Being an owner of two Selenes, going thru the commissioning of two news Selenes, working with dealers and Manufacture on both. Talking with other owners, sales managers of all said manufactures, Nordhavn, Krogens, Flemmings they all have some issues that need tweaking when new. At the present I have a Selene 2012 56' wide body that is 10 months old and has over 4000 kn miles and we could not be happier with our Selene, have we had issues at the delivery? Sure, but that was corrected and again we could not be happier. Lets get back and help pmcpmc with facts and considerations between the two brands.
Seanna
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BTW what did Nordhavn do about the cracking of Bulkheads in some of the models?
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Old 18-06-2013, 15:01   #14
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Re: Fleming or Selene

ok ok fair enough.. it was late and my message didnt read as it was written if you know what I mean. I did in fact private message chrisjs to apologise. You are entirely correct and I am happy to stand corrected. PMCPMC,I guess my comment is simply to consider Nordhavn amongst the boats you are considering.

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Old 18-06-2013, 15:51   #15
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Re: Fleming or Selene

Like the original poster, I owned and raced sailboats for 25+ years before going "bi-nautical". I have owned two Selenes, and still own a small sailboat (a Santana 20) for the sheer pleasure of day sailing. I previously owned a Selene 50, and we upgraded to a Selene 60 about 3 years ago. I've also owned a J/130, Olson 34, and several other high-performance sailboats over the past 25+ years, and I have crossed the Pacific twice under sail.

The original poster asked about Selene vs. Fleming, and it's already been adequately pointed out that these two boats are significantly different in terms of their design choices. If you value the ability to get up on a plane at 15-25 knots, the Fleming is the right boat for you. From what exposure I've had to them, they are well built and nicely finished boats--but definitely designed for a different purpose.

(By the way, I am also the volunteer developer/operator of the Selene Owner's web site at Selene Owners Site, which is not associated with or supported by the factory or dealers. Coincidentally, a Fleming owner friend liked what he saw on the Selene Owner's site, and I adapter the software I developed for the Selene Owner's web site to also run the Fleming Owner's web site at Fleming Owners Site. As a result, I've gotten to know at least one of the Fleming owners as well and I've admired the boats. You can learn a ton about Selenes on our owner's site, which welcomes guests and the owners are happy to share their experience--good and bad.

As often happens, this conversation seems to have gotten hijacked by a Selene vs. Nordhavn debate, which wasn't the original poster's question.

I hate to feed that debate, but since it's already going.... I will say that Nordhavn does a much better job of marketing than Jet Tern (the builder of Selene). They are well built boats and I've been aboard both. I personally far prefer the design of the Selenes and wouldn't trade mine for a similar size Nordhavn straight across.

In terms of ocean crossing (if that is the original poster's goal), the debate gets even less based on fact and more on marketing. People have crossed oceans in all kinds of boats--some certainly far less optimized for ocean crossing that Selenes or Nordhavns. To claim that one is "safe" and the other is not, or that one is "seaworthy" and the other is not, is a gross oversimplification that is based much more on marketing than facts about the boats.

That being said, several Selenes have quite safely and securely crossed oceans. My good friends, John & Kathy Youngblood have been living aboard their Selene 53 since 2007 and have transited the west coast, the panama canal, circumnavigated the Caribbean, crossed the Pacific to French Polynesia, and should be in New Zealand this fall (I may be doing the Tonga - NZ passage with them). Another Selene 48 owned by Brian Calvert is in Indonesia having done a similar crossing. Our Selene map shows the boats scattered across every ocean.

I've cruised Selenes up and down the entire west coast of the US (Vancouver Island to La Paz) and through the Panama canal. Frankly, I've seen larger seas off the coast of Oregon than I've ever seen in the middle of the ocean. I've never had the slightest concern for the seaworthiness of the Selenes.

Bottom line (IMHO), either a Fleming or a Selene (or a Nordhavn) are great boats. It all depends on what you plan to do with it and your personal design preferences. Have whatever you're looking at surveyed thoroughly. If it makes you feel better, have a naval architect look at the hydrostatic data for the boats. Recognize that in most all cases, the boats can take more than you can...

Mark
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