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Old 19-06-2016, 10:30   #76
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Boat Dreams

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Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Thanks for all the replies, guys!

My intent is to live aboard and "gunkhole" various places until I find where I want to be. Permanently. My lupus doesn't allow for ocean going any more and all I'll get to do with the Morgan is help my best friend to realize and live his Dream. Unfortunately, with that, my Dream dies.

Now it's time for a new dream.

Keep that dream alive !
I reference a quote from the book, 'a Proper Yacht'

Quote:
"Houses, are but badly built boats so firmly aground that you cannot think of moving them.

They are definitely inferior things, belonging to the vegetable not the animal world, rooted and stationary, incapable of gay transition.

I admit, doubtfully, as exceptions, snail-shells and caravans. The desire to build a house is the tired wish of a man content thenceforward with a single anchorage.

The desire to build a boat is the desire of youth, unwilling yet to accept the idea of a final resting-place.


When it comes, the desire to build a boat is one of those that cannot be resisted. It begins as a little cloud on the serene horizon. It ends by covering the whole sky, so that you can think of nothing else. You must build to regain your freedom"

...in the preface of "The Proper Yacht"
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Old 19-06-2016, 10:41   #77
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

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Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Thanks guys!

..but one last time...
This IS NOT an engineering exercise, it is a means to an end and I will make do with what I can afford within the specification.

Now how about some ideas and constructive commentary?




Now the next question:
Which is the most efficient hull vs propulsion hp and why?
1. flat barge bottom
2. shallow v
3. deep v
4. shaped nosed pontoon
It really does not sound like you intend to be on the move a great deal of the time, so I would question why you really need the most efficient hull, propulsion wise??

I'm going to give you a few references to some vessels I've explored in Thailand when I was looking at the idea of a Thai or Bali styled floating cottage.
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Old 19-06-2016, 11:05   #78
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Some Houseboats in Thailand

Have a look thru a few of these postings, and particularly the ones having ro do with some construction methods,...just good old simple steel stock for the most part,...pretty cheap and easy to work with.

Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 12 - Boat Design ForumsRetirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 13 - Boat Design ForumsA number of these were party barges with living quarters upstairs. They just use a simple free standing generator for electric power on board.

Then they mostly used pusher vessels for power, but I'm sure you could just place any old engine on an aft deck space and use a 'long tail type prop' arrangement. Google my name "Brian Eiland" along with "long tail" and I'm sure you will run into lots of photos.

BTW, there are some interesting pusher vessels pictured here:
Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 13 - Boat Design Forums

Check out this little cruising cottage
Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums
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Old 19-06-2016, 11:08   #79
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Another forum posting of mine that has some nice looking canal boats

Inland Waterway Cruising; Boats, Barges, etc. - General Yachting Discussion | YachtForums: We Know Big Boats!
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Old 20-06-2016, 03:35   #80
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Re: Some Houseboats in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Have a look thru a few of these postings, and particularly the ones having ro do with some construction methods,...just good old simple steel stock for the most part,...pretty cheap and easy to work with.

Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 12 - Boat Design ForumsRetirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 13 - Boat Design ForumsA number of these were party barges with living quarters upstairs. They just use a simple free standing generator for electric power on board.

Then they mostly used pusher vessels for power, but I'm sure you could just place any old engine on an aft deck space and use a 'long tail type prop' arrangement. Google my name "Brian Eiland" along with "long tail" and I'm sure you will run into lots of photos.

BTW, there are some interesting pusher vessels pictured here:
Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 13 - Boat Design Forums

Check out this little cruising cottage
Retirement Houseboat or Floating Home - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums
Wonderful!

If you have the waterways for them, then what could be better than a floating house? I saw an amazing one in Copenhagen last month, in the middle of the city, two stories and with a large porch, all kinds of kayaks and auxiliary vessels.

If it's not going to be moved all that much -- say not more than once a week -- then I don't understand why an expensive experimental propulsion system is needed. A used outboard motor will cost a small fraction and will definitely work. That plus a suitcase generator, and then the requirements for the solar installation and battery storage system become far more attainable without spending megabucks.

Nothing wrong with electric propulsion, but it's necessary to have a sober look at the numbers, namely two sets of them -- first of all, how many horsepower will be needed to move the vessel in the worst conditions which could be encountered, and how far, and second, the COST of a the electric motor and storage and generation systems needed to provide it with the amount of power needed to fulfill the first set of numbers.

Solar power has come down in price, but still has a certain cost per watt of nominal power. Nominal and real are two different things, but it's possible to find data about how much real power you will get on average in a given location, out of a given amount of nominal power. Then you can calculate the cost to produce enough power to cover your needs. And then you can calculate the cost to store enough power. Is the total cost acceptable to you?

If it were me, unless I had 100k or so to burn just for the sake of playing with the technology, I think I would go with a used outboard motor and call it good.
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Old 20-06-2016, 06:36   #81
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

But you are likely going to want electric power onboard at any rate,...so why not obtain some of it via solar, and some of it via aux generator. Then since you have that onboard why not make use of it for the occasional propulsion you might require.

For someone who has some knowledge about these subjects (the OP does apparently), why not try to build yourself a 'system' . You might be amazed at what items you can pick up for scrap prices at metal scrap yards,...electric motors big and small, generators, etc. I have one such yard here in FL right around the corner from me. Folks come and sell this yard 'junk' in their mind for the weight of the metal. In many cases the items are in reasonable shape. Or surplus yards.

I am continually amazed at what ideas/adaptations the third-world 'inventors' come up with in search of economical solutions to their everday problems. The long-tail boats of Thailand and Burma are one such interesting solutions/adaptations. Do a little search via google on some of these subjects on several of the boating forums, for instance:
thai boat plans needed.. - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums

Long tail drive on steroids - Boat Design Forums

Long Tail ..a question of balance - Boat Design Forums

Here is a good one
Surface Propulsion, long-tail-emprovements. - Boat Design Forums

...another river boat project (albeit a bit more expensive)
river boat progress - Boat Design Forums
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Old 20-06-2016, 07:48   #82
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

This was another economically canal boat concept,...simply plywood construction,...and not bad looking.
Mark V 39

Quote:
Construction is mainly plywood and epoxy.
The bottom is one layer of fir toungue-and-groove flooring (from an old house) followed by two layers of plywood to finish 2" thick. The fir flooring is varnished and serves as the cabin sole.
The sides are two layers of 1/2" plywood.
There are watertight bulkheads forward and aft of the cabin, and there are no underwater thru-hull fittings.
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Old 20-06-2016, 10:04   #83
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
It really does not sound like you intend to be on the move a great deal of the time, so I would question why you really need the most efficient hull, propulsion wise??

I'm going to give you a few references to some vessels I've explored in Thailand when I was looking at the idea of a Thai or Bali styled floating cottage.
It's for the times I do need to move and will need to use the Mississippi and Ohio rivers for passage from "A to B". The more efficient the hull, the less power required to move it. River transit s going to require auxiliary more than likely. That won't be decided here, but once the electrics are installed and trials begin. Then we'll see what works and what needs to be added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Wonderful!

If you have the waterways for them, then what could be better than a floating house? I saw an amazing one in Copenhagen last month, in the middle of the city, two stories and with a large porch, all kinds of kayaks and auxiliary vessels.

If it's not going to be moved all that much -- say not more than once a week -- then I don't understand why an expensive experimental propulsion system is needed. A used outboard motor will cost a small fraction and will definitely work. That plus a suitcase generator, and then the requirements for the solar installation and battery storage system become far more attainable without spending megabucks.

Nothing wrong with electric propulsion, but it's necessary to have a sober look at the numbers, namely two sets of them -- first of all, how many horsepower will be needed to move the vessel in the worst conditions which could be encountered, and how far, and second, the COST of a the electric motor and storage and generation systems needed to provide it with the amount of power needed to fulfill the first set of numbers.

Solar power has come down in price, but still has a certain cost per watt of nominal power. Nominal and real are two different things, but it's possible to find data about how much real power you will get on average in a given location, out of a given amount of nominal power. Then you can calculate the cost to produce enough power to cover your needs. And then you can calculate the cost to store enough power. Is the total cost acceptable to you?

If it were me, unless I had 100k or so to burn just for the sake of playing with the technology, I think I would go with a used outboard motor and call it good.
I've already had the professionals look at what I want and they came up with the numbers for the electric system and the profile we decided on was the one listed previously. It still needs growth in the recharging system from 10 solar panels to start with and possibly one more string of cells as we go along. All the "rah-rah" coming from those others saying the numbers don't jive will just have to talk to the pros that do this stuff for themselves. They keep using displacement hull parameters and math and this is a planing hull. I'm done arguing with cynics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
But you are likely going to want electric power onboard at any rate,...so why not obtain some of it via solar, and some of it via aux generator. Then since you have that onboard why not make use of it for the occasional propulsion you might require.

For someone who has some knowledge about these subjects (the OP does apparently), why not try to build yourself a 'system' . You might be amazed at what items you can pick up for scrap prices at metal scrap yards,...electric motors big and small, generators, etc. I have one such yard here in FL right around the corner from me. Folks come and sell this yard 'junk' in their mind for the weight of the metal. In many cases the items are in reasonable shape. Or surplus yards.
EXACTLY!! I never buy what I can fabricate myself or scrounge up cheaper. I love salvage yards. Buy from "marine" suppliers cost way more than necessary where there are other items with the same ratings a whole lot cheaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
I am continually amazed at what ideas/adaptations the third-world 'inventors' come up with in search of economical solutions to their everday problems. The long-tail boats of Thailand and Burma are one such interesting solutions/adaptations. Do a little search via google on some of these subjects on several of the boating forums, for instance:
thai boat plans needed.. - Page 3 - Boat Design Forums

Long tail drive on steroids - Boat Design Forums

Long Tail ..a question of balance - Boat Design Forums

Here is a good one
Surface Propulsion, long-tail-emprovements. - Boat Design Forums

...another river boat project (albeit a bit more expensive)
river boat progress - Boat Design Forums
Mainly, I don't want the persistent fuel cost and lack of availability in the areas I plan on being. The boat is not mainly for "cruising", much as I would like to do the Great Loop, this hull won't handle the ICW on the east coast. I do plan on going through the rivers and lakes on the Upper Miss, Ohio, Cumberland, Illinois, and Tennessee Rivers. Once I find where I want to be, it's for just living out in the boonies away from "the system" and off the grid.

This rig will do what I need it to do. What ever is necessary for auxiliary power and thrust will be used as required. Though I would prefer to keep fuel out of the equation.


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Old 20-06-2016, 14:49   #84
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
But you are likely going to want electric power onboard at any rate,...so why not obtain some of it via solar, and some of it via aux generator. Then since you have that onboard why not make use of it for the occasional propulsion you might require.
If it was at zero cost and complication, I would agree.

What you suggest is the equivalent of not having enough juice to start your diesel, so you find a 9v battery in the junk drawer. You wire it into your 12v system to help the starting battery. In the end, it will be expensive, complicated and have no real impact on getting your motor started.

Yeah, you may want to keep some spare 9v batteries on board but it really has no impact on your 12v system.
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Old 20-06-2016, 15:07   #85
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

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Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
[COLOR=Blue] . . . I've already had the professionals look at what I want and they came up with the numbers for the electric system and the profile we decided on was the one listed previously. It still needs growth in the recharging system from 10 solar panels to start with and possibly one more string of cells as we go along. All the "rah-rah" coming from those others saying the numbers don't jive will just have to talk to the pros that do this stuff for themselves. They keep using displacement hull parameters and math and this is a planing hull. I'm done arguing with cynics.
Planing hull on a houseboat sounds kind of implausible to me, and I believe that getting a planing hull up on plane takes more power than moving a displacement hull at hull speed, but it's your boat, which you know better than I do -- just be careful and be sure the numbers are real, and that the numbers add up. The numbers don't lie. The physics are the physics. If you're having pro engineers work on it, that already sounds good. A professional willing to give you a written calculation and put his name on it, is worth more than free opinions from an Internet forum, even an excellent one like this
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Old 20-06-2016, 15:35   #86
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

The OP's story reminds me of a story I recall from childhood about "stone soup". A strange visitor comes to town and talks such a good game about making soup out of stone that the gullible villagers get excited and offer to help. The visitor keeps asking for one little thing (a carrot, a potato, a little pepper, etc...) By the time he is done, they've emptied their larders into a huge pot and he drops a tiny pebble into the pot and calls it stone soup. Makes me wonder if the final product will sport a couple of big block V8's that do 99% of the motoring and a trolling motor hooked up to a single deep cycle battery and a 50watt panel, so it's technically an electric boat.

The only difference here is the villagers here aren't so gullible.

If he actually has professionals giving him the information he posted, they need to be reported so they lose their licenses as they are incompetent.
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Old 20-06-2016, 16:52   #87
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
I've already had the professionals look at what I want and they came up with the numbers for the electric system and the profile we decided on was the one listed previously. It still needs growth in the recharging system from 10 solar panels to start with and possibly one more string of cells as we go along. All the "rah-rah" coming from those others saying the numbers don't jive will just have to talk to the pros that do this stuff for themselves. They keep using displacement hull parameters and math and this is a planing hull. I'm done arguing with cynics.
Do these "professionals" know anything about boat design?

It's a fact that planing hulls take more power to move than either a flat bottom or a displacement hull at the speeds you are talking about. The ONLY place that a planing hull saves power is once you get it up to a planing speed - which will be well above your maximum design speed.
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