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Old 08-06-2016, 17:07   #61
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Makes one wonder why you asked in the first place if you already have the answers.
Used to it by now. It's a regular occurrence here.

1. Dreamer comes along with totally unrealistic expectations.
2. Gets a dose of reality from people with knowledge and experience.
3. Refuses to acknowledge the facts and abuses the realists.
4. Goes off in a huff.
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Old 09-06-2016, 03:38   #62
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
Used to it by now. It's a regular occurrence here.

1. Dreamer comes along with totally unrealistic expectations.
2. Gets a dose of reality from people with knowledge and experience.
3. Refuses to acknowledge the facts and abuses the realists.
4. Goes off in a huff.
Yes, but there are more complicated dynamics than this.

I'm not saying what happened or didn't happen in this thread; talking general principles.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with being a dreamer. On the contrary, dreamers make the world go round. Without dreamers we'd still be living in caves.

But to make dreams into something worth something, you have to find the flaws in them, and fill the gaps to reality, and just looking for validation and rejecting all criticism doesn't lead anywhere. Dreamers who want to actually make something out of their dreams should cherish their critics -- who are doing part of their work for them. Criticism is much more valuable than comments about what a great idea it is.


Another thing is that there is a human tendency to ridicule new or unusual ideas. We also see this on here (not necessarily in this thread -- again I'm not commenting on this thread). Also a tendency to ridicule people who seem to have less experience or knowledge. This is all very bad, and all contributes sometimes to these situations. We should all try hard to be respectful and helpful, to people floating new ideas on here, even if they are really unworkable.
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Old 09-06-2016, 04:09   #63
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yes, but there are more complicated dynamics than this.

I'm not saying what happened or didn't happen in this thread; talking general principles.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with being a dreamer. On the contrary, dreamers make the world go round. Without dreamers we'd still be living in caves.

But to make dreams into something worth something, you have to find the flaws in them, and fill the gaps to reality, and just looking for validation and rejecting all criticism doesn't lead anywhere. Dreamers who want to actually make something out of their dreams should cherish their critics -- who are doing part of their work for them. Criticism is much more valuable than comments about what a great idea it is.


Another thing is that there is a human tendency to ridicule new or unusual ideas. We also see this on here (not necessarily in this thread -- again I'm not commenting on this thread). Also a tendency to ridicule people who seem to have less experience or knowledge. This is all very bad, and all contributes sometimes to these situations. We should all try hard to be respectful and helpful, to people floating new ideas on here, even if they are really unworkable.
Excellent Post!

I look at it this way:
Progress always starts with an idea that is different from the status quo.
Innovation always challenges the conventional.
Criticism can be a great motivator and aid to sharpening the ideas.
Dialog and discussion of "what ifs" is of value to both sides on an issue.
Respect and civility keep the dialog productive.
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Old 09-06-2016, 06:28   #64
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I'm not saying what happened or didn't happen in this thread; talking general principles.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with being a dreamer. On the contrary, dreamers make the world go round. Without dreamers we'd still be living in caves.
Yes, without the dreams and ideas there would be no progress. No matter how wild and crazy a dream may sound initially it's always worthwhile to think about them. That one may not work but may lead to another that will or at the very least gain more knowledge that leads to a better one down the road.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
But to make dreams into something worth something, you have to find the flaws in them, and fill the gaps to reality, and just looking for validation and rejecting all criticism doesn't lead anywhere. Dreamers who want to actually make something out of their dreams should cherish their critics -- who are doing part of their work for them. Criticism is much more valuable than comments about what a great idea it is.
Exactly! For a dream to become a reality takes work and study and eventually dealing with reality and practicality. To outright reject any and all questions and criticisms frequently leads to failure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Another thing is that there is a human tendency to ridicule new or unusual ideas. We also see this on here (not necessarily in this thread -- again I'm not commenting on this thread). Also a tendency to ridicule people who seem to have less experience or knowledge. This is all very bad, and all contributes sometimes to these situations. We should all try hard to be respectful and helpful, to people floating new ideas on here, even if they are really unworkable.
I do see this happen on the forum but I think (hope) it isn't too common here and usually another member will point this out in the thread. It is certainly worst when addressed to a newbie trying to learn who asks questions that may seem silly and obvious to the "old hands". Terrible to kill the dream and enthusiasm of a new cruiser.
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Old 17-06-2016, 12:33   #65
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Boat: 56x16 Stephens House Barge = $12,900.00

Solar Panels: 10x 420W Heliene 96M420 monocrystalline solar panels = $4650.00

Battery Plant:
32x Trojan L-16PO Flooded Cell 6v 390ah 8x4 series-parallel = $9757.44
OR
32x Crown 6CRV390 AGM 6v 390Ah 8x4 series-parallel = $15072.00

Motor-Controller-Charger:
2x Curtis HPVES AC-20 48v kit = $5750.00

This kit features a Curtis 1238-6501, one of Curtis's most versatile controllers, capable of operating between 48-80 Volts drawing up to 550 Amps producing up to 47.59 HP and 69.03 ft-lbs of torque at 4200 Rpm. This kit is ideal for motorcycles, go-karts, small cars, boats and industrial applications.
Kit includes:
  • Curtis 1234-5371 AC Controller
  • HPEVS AC20 6.7" x 12.5" NEMA C Face, 7/8" shaft.
  • Curtis Spyglass Model 840 Display (dispays: Amps, Voltage, RPM, Controller/Motor Temp)
  • Tyco contactor
  • Throttle
  • Wiring Harness and Wiring instructions
===============


That's $33,057.44 (flooded) and $38,372.44 (AGM) respectively.
The attached data is for 1 motor. I'm using 2.
Still room to spare for more solar panels before the $45K mark.

You can keep the $1000. I never said all day even though you did. 10 knots is for performance "headroom".
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Old 17-06-2016, 12:38   #66
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

For all the naysayers....GO FISH!
There is always a way if you put your mind and heart into something instead sitting on your ass saying "It can't be done." Yes, there are compromises here and there, but that doesn't stop the Dream or an idea from happening.
"You can't always get what you want, but if try sometimes you just might find...you get what you need."

That'll do, pig. That'll do.
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Old 17-06-2016, 12:50   #67
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

"1. Dreamer comes along with totally unrealistic expectations.
2. Gets a dose of reality from people with knowledge and experience.
3. Refuses to acknowledge the facts and abuses the realists.
4. Goes off in a huff."

"But to make dreams into something worth something, you have to find the flaws in them, and fill the gaps to reality, and just looking for validation and rejecting all criticism doesn't lead anywhere. Dreamers who want to actually make something out of their dreams should cherish their critics -- who are doing part of their work for them. Criticism is much more valuable than comments about what a great idea it is."

Criticism without solutions or ideas are useless except to drive away the Dreamer. The commentary, in this and other threads, appears to consider the questioner an individual without knowledge of anything. You don't know who the person is or their life experience. When commenting you condescend whether by intent or not and that puts people off. When you continue to argue with someone, even after correction and the presentation of experience, it is foolishness and arrogance.

This not the first time and it's always the same people, so this appears to be the Modus Operandi. I have been on this forum a long time and seen commentary from the same people spoken in the same way to others.

You need to remember, just because someone asks a question, doesn't mean YOU are necessarily qualified to answer it.
So I found the ones who are. And they're not you.

DockHead, SteadyHand, Ranger..Thanks for trying!
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Old 17-06-2016, 12:51   #68
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Boat: 56x16 Stephens House Barge = $12,900.00

Solar Panels: 10x 420W Heliene 96M420 monocrystalline solar panels = $4650.00

Battery Plant:
32x Trojan L-16PO Flooded Cell 6v 390ah 8x4 series-parallel = $9757.44
OR
32x Crown 6CRV390 AGM 6v 390Ah 8x4 series-parallel = $15072.00

Motor-Controller-Charger:
2x Curtis HPVES AC-20 48v kit = $5750.00

This kit features a Curtis 1238-6501, one of Curtis's most versatile controllers, capable of operating between 48-80 Volts drawing up to 550 Amps producing up to 47.59 HP and 69.03 ft-lbs of torque at 4200 Rpm. This kit is ideal for motorcycles, go-karts, small cars, boats and industrial applications.
Kit includes:
  • Curtis 1234-5371 AC Controller
  • HPEVS AC20 6.7" x 12.5" NEMA C Face, 7/8" shaft.
  • Curtis Spyglass Model 840 Display (dispays: Amps, Voltage, RPM, Controller/Motor Temp)
  • Tyco contactor
  • Throttle
  • Wiring Harness and Wiring instructions
===============


That's $33,057.44 (flooded) and $38,372.44 (AGM) respectively.
The attached data is for 1 motor. I'm using 2.
Still room to spare for more solar panels before the $45K mark.
It always surprises me the diminishing returns on speed.

Going at 5 knots takes literally a 10th of the battery power as going at 10!
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Old 17-06-2016, 13:08   #69
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Boat: 56x16 Stephens House Barge = $12,900.00

Solar Panels: 10x 420W Heliene 96M420 monocrystalline solar panels = $4650.00

Battery Plant:
32x Trojan L-16PO Flooded Cell 6v 390ah 8x4 series-parallel = $9757.44
OR
32x Crown 6CRV390 AGM 6v 390Ah 8x4 series-parallel = $15072.00

Motor-Controller-Charger:
2x Curtis HPVES AC-20 48v kit = $5750.00

This kit features a Curtis 1238-6501, one of Curtis's most versatile controllers, capable of operating between 48-80 Volts drawing up to 550 Amps producing up to 47.59 HP and 69.03 ft-lbs of torque at 4200 Rpm. This kit is ideal for motorcycles, go-karts, small cars, boats and industrial applications.
Kit includes:
  • Curtis 1234-5371 AC Controller
  • HPEVS AC20 6.7" x 12.5" NEMA C Face, 7/8" shaft.
  • Curtis Spyglass Model 840 Display (dispays: Amps, Voltage, RPM, Controller/Motor Temp)
  • Tyco contactor
  • Throttle
  • Wiring Harness and Wiring instructions
===============


That's $33,057.44 (flooded) and $38,372.44 (AGM) respectively.
The attached data is for 1 motor. I'm using 2.
Still room to spare for more solar panels before the $45K mark.
Just a few thoughts:
- If I'm reading your spreadsheet correctly, 96lbs of thrust (equivalent to a single large trolling motor) is going to push a 56' barge at 5kts? I'm not buying it.
- Assuming you limit it to a 50% discharge, so you don't destroy the batteries, it's going to take just shy of 18hrs to fully recharge. Taking the typical 5hr per day you get out of solar panels, that means it's 3.5 days after a full run before you have a full "tank". This assumes no house loads eating into that. Even if you stop in a marina and plug in, you are probably looking at 2 days to recharge.
- The motors appear to max out at around 12hp. Two of those running full bore, might get you 5kts (this is being optimistic). Assuming the consumption figures still hold true, that gives you about 2.5 hours before 50% discharge or about 12.5miles range under power. Any kind of headwind, current or waves and that could easily be cut in half or worse.
- A pair of 15hp outboards will get you a fully operational boat with more power and more range for maybe $16k. Family rented a similar size houseboat a few years back. It had a 90hp outboard and after a few minutes it maxed out around 7kts.

Don't forget to add battery replacement costs in. $10k every 5-8yrs is not insignificant.
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Old 17-06-2016, 19:26   #70
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Just a few thoughts:
- If I'm reading your spreadsheet correctly, 96lbs of thrust (equivalent to a single large trolling motor) is going to push a 56' barge at 5kts? I'm not buying it.
- Assuming you limit it to a 50% discharge, so you don't destroy the batteries, it's going to take just shy of 18hrs to fully recharge. Taking the typical 5hr per day you get out of solar panels, that means it's 3.5 days after a full run before you have a full "tank". This assumes no house loads eating into that. Even if you stop in a marina and plug in, you are probably looking at 2 days to recharge.
- The motors appear to max out at around 12hp. Two of those running full bore, might get you 5kts (this is being optimistic). Assuming the consumption figures still hold true, that gives you about 2.5 hours before 50% discharge or about 12.5miles range under power. Any kind of headwind, current or waves and that could easily be cut in half or worse.
- A pair of 15hp outboards will get you a fully operational boat with more power and more range for maybe $16k. Family rented a similar size houseboat a few years back. It had a 90hp outboard and after a few minutes it maxed out around 7kts.

Don't forget to add battery replacement costs in. $10k every 5-8yrs is not insignificant.
He doesn't want to hear facts like that. Besides - you must be unqualified.
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Old 17-06-2016, 19:26   #71
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Almost 10 kts for an hour then three days to recharge. Allowing for some current that's about 2 miles a day or about a year to make it from New Orleans to St Louis. Maybe that's good enough for you to call cruising but yes, I'll keep the $1000.

Guess I'll have to remain a naysayer as making 9.7 kts pushing a 56' unstreamlined barge with an electric motor that produces "up to 47.59 HP" defies logic to me. Maybe you can explain what new math you used to "calculate" these results.
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Old 17-06-2016, 19:28   #72
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

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He doesn't want to hear facts like that. Besides - you must be unqualified.
Worse than unqualified, he's a naysayer.
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Old 17-06-2016, 21:23   #73
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Simple physics. The energy density of diesel is 37 MJ/L and Lithium batteries 1 - 4 MJ/L. Rechargeable lithium ion batteries are closer to 1 MJ/L.

Having a tantrum about us 'electric skeptics' wont change the physics.

The current state of battery technology dictates that range is your limitation. Regardless of how much other electric benefits might appeal to our emotions.

I love being off grid with our solar and wind powered 675 A/hr of house battery capacity. But electric propulsion just will not work for our cruising use cases.

If somebody wants to consider a modern cycle small nuclear powerplant then diesel looks archaic with many magnitudes lower energy density. We wouldnt even need sails then.

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Old 19-06-2016, 08:39   #74
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Battery Plant:
32x Trojan L-16PO Flooded Cell 6v 390ah 8x4 series-parallel = $9757.44
OR
32x Crown 6CRV390 AGM 6v 390Ah 8x4 series-parallel = $15072.00

That's $33,057.44 (flooded) and $38,372.44 (AGM) respectively.

How much would each of those options weigh?

Of those two, flooded lead acid batteries and a watering system would seem more cost-effective for your initial operating capability, especially if you also happen to have semi-decent access for hands-on service if/when necessary. You could always replace with AGM (or whatever) at the end of the first bank's lifetime.

What would be the cost and weight of a LiFePO4 (or whatever Li) bank?

I'm gathering you're content to stay put (wherever) until batteries are sufficiently charged... and that even when you do move, you're content with moving however far your batteries will support (if desired, moving more later, when possible)... and that you don't much care about top speed as long as you have enough to occasionally overcome current on the occasions when your next destination is upstream.

That about right? If so, that (or your edited version) might better flesh out your intent for some of the other folks...

I still believe useful to keep examining diesel or propane propulsion options, at least to be sure about the economics of the project. For example, 200 gallons of diesel would weigh in the neighborhood of 1400 lbs, might last you two or more ?? years of modest consumption (if in line with with my guesswork above, and assuming solar-power too). Propane might be similar, could be useful for cooking and maybe auxiliary heat, and there are propane outboards. Not at all saying these are "better" options; just thinking useful to fully explore (and cost out) all possibilities.

-Chris
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Old 19-06-2016, 09:42   #75
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Re: Electric Houseboat concept

Each of the Trojans is 115lbs, so about 3,600lbs plus wiring and racks. Probably 4,000lbs all totaled.
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