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Old 12-10-2006, 06:28   #46
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What Dave says makes a lot of sense. Specially if one is cruising is places where fuel is cheap - like SE Asia.
I looked at few power cats, but they are more expansive than the sailing casts, so there is no good reason to go for the power ones. Also, for the few I looked at, the fuel tanks are too small.
The Maxim 400, for example, costs 15K more than the Maxim 380. Since you need to change the sails only 7 years or so after you buy a new boat, that 15K can grow to a sum that will buy you much more than new sails and new rigging.
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Old 12-10-2006, 07:20   #47
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Read about the Daschews latest project. They do a comparison of sail to power costs. Considering the cost of rigging and sails I would think it is a toss up. (Just re-read the entire post and saw other mentioned Daschew)

If you want speed from a sail boat you need to keep them light or make them big. The problem is it's tough to keep a cruising boat light so to get speed you end up having to go big.

Then you run into the practical limit of how fast you want to travel because speed can give a very uncomfortable ride. So to soften the ride you end up with weight and waterline. How fast do you want to run a powerboat in a sea to maintian comfort? 10~12 knots? Many find it easy to go with a large sailboat and get speed and comfort and two propulsion engines (sail and power). But in the end it's really a wash.
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Old 13-10-2006, 01:36   #48
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And your range is...

To me there are two practical reasons why a cruising boat might need sails.
1. Range : Fuel consumption is going to run at least 4 litres/hour. Realistically we would need to budget 4 knots at this consumption so we end up with a rule of thumb of one litre per nautical mile. Most voyage reports from the trawler people mention rather more than this.
This is not a problem on a 50 nm coastal hop but some of the ocean passages are more than three thousand miles. Three thousand litres is a lot of fuel and that would not allow for reserves. Going to Thailand should not be a problem but the fuel requirements increase dramatically after that.
2. Safety : Engines break down. The accounts of trawler voyages generally mention a wing engine. If you factor a properly installed and maintained wing engine in then the financial advantages of engine only decrease. Sails seem to be more reliable than engines.
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Old 28-10-2006, 00:16   #49
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G'day Chris31415, I believe you were unlucky enough to have engine issues in your boat. I hope you got 'em sorted.

In regard's to your safety comment, a sailing boat can get it's rig hit by lightening causing concern over wire and chainplate integrity and toasting any radios and electronics on board making calling for assistance a bit tough. Also you can drop a rig. This can also ruin your day.

Speaking from experience having had lightning and toasted everything once and having spat a rig twice, I can assure you it's not enjoyable.

You've got me on the range , I'll only be able to get 2000+ n/m from my cat, but that'll see me anywhere we wan't to go, and I can't see both engines having problems at once. Touchwood.

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Old 05-11-2006, 23:56   #50
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Some other pics of fairly fuel efficient cats.

All of these boats are Aus or NZ designs and I believe all have had engines of 100hp x2 or less installed

Enjoy
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Old 07-11-2006, 03:44   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat man do
Gee mate if you look at my post from the start you'll get the reasons why were running this way. How much did your rig and sails cost?? If their any good I'd recon they'd pay for a bit of diesel. Venezuela's on the wrong side of the world for me, and I like eating Thai,Malaysian and espesially Vietnamese food so this appears to be the place for me.

I do understand that diesel isn't getting any cheaper but I don't think good sailcloth, riggers wages, alloy sections,spectra halyards and rigging wire let alone blown deck hardware etc etc are getting any cheaper either. I may infact have a better chance of getting my low tech Cummins repaired ,than I would have of a decent sail repair or dropped rig fixed in a remote place.

As I've said all along I would rather have a fast performance sailing cat, but in our instance I don't feel the numbers stack up.

Where not the only ones

http://members.optusnet.com.au/suean...index.html.htm
http://www.setsail.com/binn/homepage.taf

Have fun

Dave
I'm not disputing the numbers Dave, but for it all to work you will need to be very strict with your budget. What I mean is, if you were planning on spending, say 300K on your sailing boat, then you decided you could save 60K by doing away with the rig, that will only work for you as long as you dont go ahead and spend the whole 300K on the boat anyway.

I'm pretty sure i would end up doing just that, and then I'd have a 300K powerboat, and no money for fuel!

At least by building one with sails I know I can afford to take it out sometimes!
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Old 07-11-2006, 04:48   #52
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44'cruising cat, a bit of an indication of costs to date

I got my last pack of Gaboon ply , last lot of highbuild and I'll go close on topcoat, last 240 litres of epoxy and will have some left over , 30L/M of 440d/b glass and all the hydraulic steering gear .

We already have the motors, Cummins 65hp, exhaust and hoses,shaft's , bearings,tanks, hatches and numerous other bits and pieces.

Cost to date $67,500 AUD. We have budgeted $120,000 for her so we still have $52,500 for pumps, refrigeration, batterys, solar panels, electrics, HF and VHF radio, fish finder x 2,auto-pilot, anchor winch and gear, engine controls and a couple of sliding windows for cabin sides.

I can buy all this stuff at wholesale, so should be looking pretty good.
Also no rent for shed as where building in backyard, which reminds me , we allowed $5000 to get her to the water which is about double the going rate, and we should get a few grand for the 18m x 10m shed when done.

So, as you can see, with a pile of bit's and a whole lot of dedication/stupidity, it is achievable.

Hope this put's your fears to rest.

Dave

mmmmm, nice shiny motors.
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Old 08-11-2006, 16:32   #53
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That's a lot of boat for those bucks! But that really wasn't the point I was making.
Simply put, if you save X dollars on not having a rig & sails, but go and spend those dollars elsewhere, you won't have saved anything at all!
I'm afraid I probably would go and do just that, so for me it makes more sense to invest in sails and mast.
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Old 08-11-2006, 17:09   #54
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Fair enough, deep down[not all that deep really] I'd rather have sails as well, but most of the places we like are are a couple of hundred N/M offshore and you want to be there when it's calmish eg out at the Swains reef area a couple of hundred fom Gladstone we've just had a few days of zero knots says the B.O.M website . Not good for sailing.

But I'm going over old ground here.

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Old 08-11-2006, 19:01   #55
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I should just observe that in less than a year I have managed to get a "new" old mainsail and 2 "new" old headsails for my yacht. These have come off of racing yachts and are a little too stretched or tired to be raced any more, but are fine for cruising sailing. The main actually fits just about perfectly, but the headsails come off a bigger boat so will need cut. Nevertheless, I didn't pay a red cent for the sails (they had been sitting under racing yacht owners houses for a good while), and the recut costs will be a tiny fraction of the cost of new sails.

This is a good way of keeping "running costs" down on a sailing vessel.
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Old 08-11-2006, 19:22   #56
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Sure, But I seriously doubt that second hand sail's work on perfomance boats that can maintain 6+ knot sailing averages in 10 kn of breeze, and of course in my instance i'm still up for $35k in rig and deck hardware etc.

Second hand sails work a treat on cruising mono's , done it myself with my first 22fter,using sails of of J24 and Etchells. Just a touch overpowered though.

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Old 08-11-2006, 20:00   #57
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Surely there cannot be many live-aboard cruisers around that can average 6+ knot speeds in 10 knots of breeze? I know many modern "cruiser racers" (whatever that means) can get those sort of numbers - I just had a look at the Polars for a Farr36 One Design and also for a J37, and they can, but not by a whole heap... bear in mind that these "cruisers" are raced stripped bare, with no extra weight (dingy, water, food, fuel etc) or windage (binini, dingy, dodger, solar panels, etc.). I would be guessing that if, by the time you are fully loaded and set up for long term live aboard, you can average over 6 knots in 10 knots of breeze, you have either got a very expensive monoull or a reasonably expensive catamaran...
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Old 08-11-2006, 20:09   #58
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More like an insanely expensive catamaran, which is why we are building a low powered stinker.
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Old 10-11-2006, 18:40   #59
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Quote:
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Surely there cannot be many live-aboard cruisers around that can average 6+ knot speeds in 10 knots of breeze? I know many modern "cruiser racers" (whatever that means) can get those sort of numbers - I just had a look at the Polars for a Farr36 One Design and also for a J37, and they can, but not by a whole heap... bear in mind that these "cruisers" are raced stripped bare, with no extra weight (dingy, water, food, fuel etc) or windage (binini, dingy, dodger, solar panels, etc.). I would be guessing that if, by the time you are fully loaded and set up for long term live aboard, you can average over 6 knots in 10 knots of breeze, you have either got a very expensive monoull or a reasonably expensive catamaran...
The boat I am building can. (Oram 44C) And it's not overly expensive to build. I was talking on the phone to friends who own the same design boat and he told me he was currently sailing past Hook island in the Whitsundays at 6 knots, in 5 knots true wind speed. 6+ in 10 knots true is a breeze (so to speak). These people live aboard for 6 months at a time. There are plenty of other modern multihulls that can perform similarly, as long as you dont carry around tonnes of garbage with you.
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Old 10-11-2006, 21:10   #60
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Not a bad boat 44' CC

Is that the same as "Dog on Cat" or "Outahear"

How far into the project are you and have you got any pic's.

Slight risk of thread highjack, but it's my thread.....

Dave
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