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Old 23-09-2006, 06:52   #16
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I adopted the sailboat for the same reasons as cchelsey. I also agree with cat man do regarding operating costs. If things stay the way they are now with fossil fuels, power is equivalent to sail in terms of cost - assuming an efficent powerboat. I mean think about this - when you're motoring your sailboat, how much fuel do you use? Not much, right?

Well, take the sails off, take the rigging down, and imagine your sailboat without the sailing option. This is the kind of boat cat man do is talking about. A very efficient trawler type, not a planing 30kt boat. He's talking maybe 6-10kts and ultimate efficiency.
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Old 23-09-2006, 11:45   #17
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Dave, I understand your point, and to make it apples to apples, I agree the fair comparison would be a power cat to a sailing cat. I would say operational cost would still be very much a factor of the individual sailor. With a sailing cat, you have the option to sail only. With a power cat, you either motor or sit. All other costs should be the same. As for the cost of sails, again, that is partially a matter of where you purchase them, and what you find satisfactory for your sailing. Dacron is fine with me, and I know several people who have complete circumnavigations on one dacron mainsail. The numbers I used were very general, and based on figures I have applied to my boats, but yours will likely be different, as your needs are likely different. FWIW, all numbers are on the low end, as I have had quotes of up to $15000 US on a replacement engine for my 40 footer. Since we are not politicians, I see no need to manipulate the facts to make my point, so I will stick with my original figures
I still maintain that a frugal sailor with an equally equipped power cat or sailing cat will spend less money cruising under sail. If you havedeep pockets, you will be far more likely to spend just as much cruising on a sailing cat.
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Old 23-09-2006, 12:47   #18
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Couldn't mention this before, since my keyboard shorted out from my own drool. The boat in the link Gord posted has got to be THE perfect power vessel:

http://www.setsail.com/dashew/do_paradigm.html


My GOD I'd live my left arm for one of those.
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Old 23-09-2006, 17:07   #19
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Thanks for the feedback guys,if I was cashed up enough to buy a boat in the $300,000 range there is no doubt at all that I'd be buying a sailing cat, because you won't find a decent powercat for that money. But given an opportunity to build,..... well thats a whole lot different.you can get closer to what you want if you build yourself , and of course can decide where the money ultimetly gets spent.

That dashew is a gem, bit flash inside for my wants [and budget] I suppose you could say I spent the money on a extra hull.

Back to the numbers issue with Kai Nui, I,d agree thet Dacron sails on a slower style mono or slower style multi would work O:K . most boats sail O:K when theres plenty of wind,but on a fast boat those dacron sails will have lost there shape and there goes the 6 knot averages to windward and lost pointing ability. Off the breeze probably not much difference. If there was no difference between cheaper dacrons and more exotic cloths like pentax[high performance dacron] and cruise lam,well there'd be no real market for 'em.

Dave
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Old 23-09-2006, 19:13   #20
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I was going to mention the Dashew site, but Gord beat me to it. I seem to recall they are working from their own experience and acknowledged that they motored a lot when they had sailboats. Balancing all the other costs have given their custom power yacht the edge cost-wise. Now it you were to go all ascetic like the Pardys then I would imagine that would be the most cost-conscious route.

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Old 24-09-2006, 00:24   #21
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Dave, I concede the point. You did say "performance" from the very beginning, and yes, performance sails ain't cheap. That is a pretty cool power boat, but then it looks allot like a sail boat, so.... With deep enough pockets, I am sure I could build a power cat that would be efficient enough even for me, but, it would be at the cost of that pride factor.
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Old 24-09-2006, 01:04   #22
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Kai nui , indeed it is a bastardised sailing cat, but 4ft narrower and the mast b/h reduced, seeing as the loads are reduced.Also the last 10 ft of the under water shape got flattened so she won't squat under power.. loa 50ft,beam 24ft,weight empty 4700kg full load 8400kg

We reckon she'll be good, plenty of negative types over here, but most are armchair admirals.

Wish we could stick to sail as well, but dollars and comfort and the financier [Carolyn, my better half] have a big say to the outcome of the project.

Thanks for the comments

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Old 28-09-2006, 16:33   #23
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the idea is good i grant you and 1$ per nm is excellent, but you still cant get away from the fact that every 200nm trip still costs you 200 up front where is with sails you can delay that cost to a time of your choosing(sort of)
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Old 28-09-2006, 17:27   #24
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Hi northerncat, I agree sort of, Indirectly it will cost you every time you sail, and the main reason for this was to get the big refrigeration and big dinghy and get 200nm offshore to "the swains" in calm not rough weather. Mate it took me 5 years to talk me into the powercat option and a lot of serious number crunching, but I still say even on your easy,let alone a fifty footer, if your putting quality rig and sails on, that buys a lot of diesel.

Hey when are you getting some pics in your album and sharing with the world the insanity we go through building boats????

Dave
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Old 29-09-2006, 17:18   #25
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Here's my research...

Low 40' sailboats get around 6 to 8 nmpg under power. 38 to 40'ish 'trawlers' for the most part get about 2 nmpg. There's a 38' krogen that will get about 4 but it doesn't have an island berth. That's a big problem as I get older and would have to crawl over the admiral to go pee in the middle of the night. Same deal with Van Sant's Schucker. If either of these boats had a workable layout I'd seriously consider them.

I know a guy that converted an old sailboat into a 'trawler'. Cut off a few feet of the keel & cut the mast way down just to have a boom for handling the dink. I think it was about 40' and he repowered with a 40 hp motor.

The issue with the vast majority of power boats is the inefficient hull shape. But then the Krogen & Schucker have a better hull form for efficiency but can really get rolling in a beam sea.

I wonder if any of the production boat builders are considering a 42' version of the unsailboat?
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Old 29-09-2006, 18:56   #26
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So, if we were to talk the peak of efficiency, a hybrid diesel electric power cat with solar, and wind generation would probably fit the bill after the initial sticker cost. Carbon fiber hulls, carbon fiber cabinetry on the interior, etc, it could be done, and the efficiency would be very impressive. Even the pride factor would be there as you passed by fuel docks at a lively clip. But, like everything else, it is still a compromise. I think if you were to compare convenience and comfort on each vessel, the cost would even out. It is just that with the sailing vessel you have more options to conserve than you do with a power boat. As northerncat said, you can chose to give up convenience for economy when the need arrises with a sail boat, whereas, with power, you pay or you stay.
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Old 29-09-2006, 22:22   #27
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i will get around to posting some photos eventually but life is very full on, i have my 8 comp gaming network, my remote control airplane, my 40ft cat, my 2 jetskis, my 14 ft fishing tinny, full time work, my 3 kids and my wife all of which demand my time not to mention my "research" which i am presently engaged in to further improve my boat building skills, as for quality rig well im building that myself and i have budgeted 4000 for extrusion and rigging based on a mate doing one a year ago for 3000, still unsure on the price of sails but the anticipated cost of my sails is 3000 for winches 4000 for mast and boom, 1-2000 for rope and around 14000?( i really have no idea) for sails, i will say that i still hope to have a completed shell by christmas as i originally planned a 1 year part time project which has already blown out
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Old 29-09-2006, 22:23   #28
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my next project is a fifty footer ;-)
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Old 01-10-2006, 06:32   #29
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Hi Northerncat,sounds like you've got a bit of **** on ya plate!!
Might be a bit light on with your sail price there. Don't get conned into some of the cheaper dacrons as they lose their shape fairly quick. I can highly recomend andersen winches , i've had lots of different breeds before and these got my rocks off every time they spun and showed no sign of wear after 6 years of punishment on a fast and sometimes very wet boat. A litlle bit more expensive,but lighter than most and a lot less maintenance.

Hi Kai Nui,I agree if your kucky enough to buy the boat of your dreams with rig and sails in your price bracket, its all pretty good. But if your buying these as a new item on a new project,it buys a lot of diesel. In fact that money could be used for some form of investment and the returns on that [in our instance] would give you a nice slice of money towards the diesel bill every week. Maybe thats an interesting thread, "how do fulltime liveaboards fund their habit"

Dave

PS ....gunna do a fifty!!!!! youre a glutten for punishment
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Old 01-10-2006, 16:10   #30
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did i mention im rebuilding the jetskis? reckon theyd make great tenders
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