Cons Of Buying Used; For A Newbie

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by mikeling

So if you were looking for a used boat, what year would you not want to go under.

My current boat is from 1974 and many people here have older boats.
Depends on type / make / model of boat and personal preferences.

Originally Posted by mikeling

How old before things other than the engine start giving you trouble?

Depends on the boat (and hull material) and especially how well / poorly it has been maintained.
Same goes for the engine(s) by the way - a poorly maintained / abused newer engine will give you much more trouble then an older, well maintained and cared for engine.

Originally Posted by mikeling

Speaking of brands, where on the curve does Chaparral, Cruisers Yachts, Monterrey, Rinker and Larson go ? Bayliner being at the bottom of the curve. Is the curve same for Cruisers as it is for other types of boats ?

These are what we in the Netherlands call speedboats. About the only kind of boat I personally dislike and avoid (mostly due to the fact a lot of speedboat owners here are kind of obnoxious, not sure if the same is the US), so can't tell you anything about that -- sorry.

Originally Posted by mikeling

I am assuming that I can't always count on a free spot on a marina.

Marina's are never free. Anchorages sometimes are.
If you'll usually be in a marina, you'll have access to shore power.

Originally Posted by mikeling

Since exploring is the primary motive for boating, is Diesel is must?

With the type of boat you're looking at: yes, and keep a credit card handy cos those are thirsty engines ...

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by mikeling

Like the title says ..... Newbie. I've been talking to a colleague who has had many years of boating on an outboard; he had mentioned the resin and 2005. From reading the responses, looks like that doesn't hold much water.

Actually when you put outboards together with resin it does maybe make sense.
Lots of newer outboards have injection molded parts (plastic) and are refereed to as resin impregnated I believe and a lot of us older guys mistrust that, but I too first didn't like seeing a plastic intake manifold on my wife's car, but I have to admit 10 years later there has been no problem with it, and it comes with several advantages, especially in the Marine world, lighter weight and no corrosion being two very big, real advantages.


But, you will find I believe very little plastic on Diesels and this is probably due to tradition more than anything else and possibly weight not being as much an issue as it is on outboards.

Now on used, 2005 and newer is in a lot of peoples mind, nearly new, most of us think of "used" as in meaning "old" being 1980's boats and older.

I started out like you , thinking I wanted maybe a five year old boat, OK maybe up to ten years old, but surely by the time they get to ten years old, they are well into the being nearly worn out phase, no matter how well they were made or how well they were maintained, right?

Well I found out that boats were more like airplanes than cars, airplanes often get new or overhauled engines for example as do boats, but by the time an automobile's engine is worn out, so is the rest of the automobile, seems they do in fact have a more definite lifespan.

But airplanes, and I found out larger boats don't seem to have such a finite life, all the little pieces parts being replaced every so often and the big items like masts and hulls having seemingly a very long life.

I found in my boat shopping several five or ten year old boats in worse shape than many much older boats, because they essentially weren't maintained and had absentee owners.

[zeehag]

10,000 hours on a diesel at 3 kts per hour is NOTHING
it is LESS THAN 10000 miles.
my badly cared for unknown tractor engine made 6000 hours EASILY before runaway happened. my runaway was injector pump caused, not blowby caused.
this new rebuild should be as is a tractor--invincible and durable to
YES 100,000 hours, realistically. then rebuild again.
i donot have a nice yuppie loved delicate yanmar.
i have TRACTOR engine.

oh, yeah.

my boat is 40 yrs old this year. we will celebrate her birthday in mazatlan in summer.
po of this boat was boat virgin. he could not manage her systems and character. i pried it from his absentee and disinyerested hands rather easily, as he was not 3xperienced in any kind of boating and could not afford the necessary repairs. he did not know what needed doing.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by zeehag

10,000 hours on a diesel at 3 kts per hour is NOTHING

We're talking speedboats - if the average speedboat owner in the US is anything like their Dutch counterparts, those engines will have seen some use ... if not to say abuse. Three knots is not their average speed

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

We're talking speedboats - if the average speedboat owner in the US is anything like their Dutch counterparts, those engines will have seen some use ... if not to say abuse.

Yeah, I had to go back and read the first post, He calls them Cruisers, but I believe he is talking about planing hull boats or speedboats as your calling them, and not slower moving, liveaboard type of vessels we think of as "Cruisers"

In that instance I think maybe high speed high horsepower outboards, maybe 1500 hours is getting up there in hours.

A pair of 300 HP four strokes run moderately hard in 1500 hours will go through 75,000 gl of fuel too though

[valhalla360]

The idea that diesels last much longer is 30-40yr old tech when you put a 10liter 100hp slow turning mechanical diesel that weighted in at around a ton against a carbureted 4 cylinder gas engine with points. The tractor engine would last longer.


In the modern world, the diesel is a 2liter turbocharged electronically controlled engine vs a 2liter electronically fuel injected gas engine.


Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit but the reliability difference is negligible and it's far more likely that either engine type fails from lack of maintenance than from being worn out.


PS: unless it involves a dozen rebuilds, I'm not buying 100,000hrs out of any engine. If you keep rebuilding and don't have a catastrophic failure, you can keep any engine going for a very long time but at some point, it makes more sense to replace.

[zeehag]

speedboats are different story.
engine can last anywhere from 1 hour to ......not 15000.
every speed trial is a nice overhaul, if like racecar engines.
my chris crafts had high hours yet ran beautifully. they werent speed boats, but they were abused.
i think the commander had approx 5000 hours on engines.
donot know number for my old cavalier.


life is an adventure meant to be LIVED!!!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

We're talking speedboats - if the average speedboat owner in the US is anything like their Dutch counterparts, those engines will have seen some use ... if not to say abuse. Three knots is not their average speed

There is no official definition but what people typically think when you discuss...

In the USA, a speed boat would typically be under 25' (cigarette boats being a special case that are longer) with a cruise speed in excess of 30kts.

Big beamy planning power boats with substantial cabins would be considered cruisers. Cruise speeds tend to be down around 15-25kts.

I'm not sure what abuse you are talking about (lack of maintenance excluded as that applies to most any boat engine). We sold a 1979 with the original Chrysler 360's back in 2007. The 28yr old engines still ran strong when we sold it. If I remember correctly, it had like 2300hrs on the engines.

There are plenty of jerks with every boat type.

[a64pilot]

Diesels and spark ignition engine have come very much closer together in recent years.
example

Old diesels
Pure mechanical beasts that only use for electricity to get them started, after than, no need.
Regular maintenance consisted of essentially only filter and lubricant changes, very low RPM, very low power output per displacement and weight, very low usable RPM band
Modern Diesels
Computer controlled electronically fired high pressure common rail fuel injection, these things have way more computing power than did the entire Saturn 5 rocket, but
Power is WAY up, weight is down, you can "hot rod" these engines with software changes, RPM band is much more flexible, they are capable of much higher RPM, smoke is down as other pollutants as well, Noise, Vibration and Harshness is also way down, almost to spark ignition levels.

Old spark ignition engines,
Required essentially constant maintenance, you were constantly changing spark plugs, points and condensers, rotor button, distributor caps, but power was good and had a very flexible RPM range, downside over a Diesel was mostly fuel consumption and need for constant maintenance.

New spark ignition engines
Have eliminated distributors, points, and condensers, spark plug wires and now put coil packs directly to spark plugs, and the spark plugs due largely to unleaded fuel and exotic metals, last almost forever , so maintenance requirement is similar now to a Diesel.

In short modern Diesels have power output similar to a gas motor, quiet like a gas motor and are smooth like a gas motor, and gas motors require less maintenance like Diesels, while the maintenance requirement for Modern common rail turbo Diesels has increased.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

In the USA, a speed boat would typically be under 25' (cigarette boats being a special case that are longer) with a cruise speed in excess of 30kts.

Big beamy planning power boats with substantial cabins would be considered cruisers. Cruise speeds tend to be down around 15-25kts.

This is why I sometimes get confused

A motorboat that can do 20 km/hr or more is considered a speedboat here and would not be called a cruiser.

Boats capable of that speed (20 km/hr or more) using an engine have to be registered; slower boats (motorboats, cruisers etc.) do not. They also require the skipper to have a licence, which you don't need for the under 20 km/hr boats (as long as they're also 65' or under).

Thx for explaining, Valhalla, I'll try to remember when reading / posting in the Powered Boats section

[a64pilot]

The question of Diesel or Gas.

Usually Gas motors are much less expensive to buy than equivalent Diesels on go fast boats, Sport fishermen being my experience base, but somewhere around 30 ft the excess cost of operating, being fuel consumption, if you are actually going to go places in the boat means that Diesel is much cheaper to operate.
Pay me now, or pay me later.

Then you get up into the bigger boats, say up around 40' or so, and then Diesel is the only realistic option

On edit, my Brother had a 36' Sport fisherman that had twin 454's, and those motors were a little marginal, to really get on level plane if I remember took 4500 or so RPM and was pushing those motors harder than I liked, but the never had a problem, just went through enormous amounts of fuel though. I mean fuel for a weekends of heavy fishing was measured in the hundreds of gallons. He had a 7.5 KW generator that was running anytime it wasn't at the dock, but it's fuel use was irrelevant compared to the big motors

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by mikeling

I am getting back into boating; part of the preparation for retirement, i.e. I have the time to tinker with a boat. It has been over 25 years since I had a boat on a lake, simple bow rider.

This time I am looking at a 26' to 32' cruiser. The price of a new is far more than a used. I heard that so long as you don't get anything older and 2005, resin in older engines, you should be ok. Pass a survey and have maintenance records is another must.

How long should one expect an engine to last if it is well maintained. I have seen suggestions of 1500 hours. Is it really that high in reality ?
I have seen some 10 year old boats for sale with under 200 hrs. Why would it be that low ?

Would appreciate insights into the cons of buying a used.

Thanks

Depends how they're maintained. Gasoline will last a lot less than a diesel.

Our Perkins is 31 years old at 3900 hours and will last 10,000+ hours easily. We only run under load and we have a diesel generator which has 1200 hours that the main engine hasn't accumulated.

We use a pre oiler before starting. Oil is clean and changed every 50 hours or less.

What you're looking for even before starting is no sludge in the engine, clean coolant, no leaks, clean and tidy engine toom and maintenance records.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Wolfgang6]

What about other mechanical items that have a limited life such as the AC / heater? How long does a typical AC of a boat last? Is if difficult to replace?
I heard that Sea Ray are more "plug and play" then cheaper brands. eg the fridge has a socket versus hard wire.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Wolfgang6

What about other mechanical items that have a limited life such as the AC / heater? How long does a typical AC of a boat last? Is if difficult to replace?
I heard that Sea Ray are more "plug and play" then cheaper brands. eg the fridge has a socket versus hard wire.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

It is a factor but most systems last a long time. Current boat is a 1995 with original fridge & stove. Replaced the water pump a few years back but it's a $75 item. We did replace the air/con a couple years back but it was still running just tired of dealing with a seawater cooled system.

Before that we had a 1979 with all the original major appliances still in use (no air/con) up thru 2007 when we sold her.

Having a socket is OK but by the time you factor in removal of the old fridge and making modifications for the new one to fit...it's really not a big deal cutting the old electric cable and splicing a new one in.

Of course, I've not heard that searay has done anything special for retrofitting.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by mikeling

Yes, still looking for a Cruiser. Just returned from spring break.

Like the title says ..... Newbie. I've been talking to a colleague who has had many years of boating on an outboard; he had mentioned the resin and 2005. From reading the responses, looks like that doesn't hold much water.

Thanks for all the input, very informative.

So if you were looking for a used boat, what year would you not want to go under. How old before things other than the engine start giving you trouble ? Is this where you might want to pay more for a name brand like Regal ?

Speaking of brands, where on the curve does Chaparral, Cruisers Yachts, Monterrey, Rinker and Larson go ? Bayliner being at the bottom of the curve. Is the curve same for Cruisers as it is for other types of boats ?

Should I stay way from any Dorals since they are no longer in business ? i.e. parts difficult to replace ?

Since I am looking at using a cruiser for long range ( up to 60 miles ) and over nite trips; I have made a generator a key requirement. I am assuming that I can't always count on a free spot on a marina. Some used boats do not have a generator but has the bay for one. I was told it may cost about $12,000 to put one in. Does that sound right ? It is much cheaper if it says the boat is pre wired for a generator ?

Since exploring is the primary motive for boating, is Diesel is must ?

so much for questions .... told you I am a newbie.

It may have more to do with the year and actual boat. Bayliner gets a bad rap, but the older one I sold 2 years ago was built like the proverbial brick sh#thouse. The dash panel alone was 3/8"-1/2" solid glass!
The hull bottom on one of my sailboats wasn't that thick! The power systems are the same on all of them (outdrives and engines) , its all about the actual condition.
Sterns are an issue on many, they core the stern for stiffness, cut a hole for the sterndrive and don't seal the core well from the hole (and bolts) The stern then gets water soggy. This occurs on Sea Rays as well as Bayliners. Have they changed over the years? I don't know, but I WOULD ASK. Tollycraft is the only one I personally know didn't do this.
Diesel is price exclusive on many smaller powerboats, but if you can get it by all means do so.
Parts don't matter by boat name. They all use mostly the same stuff.... unless you need a "body" part.
I looked at a 30 ft Cabo once with diesels. It was used and about $175,000 or something like that.