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Old 25-01-2014, 16:53   #946
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by rw58ph View Post
Yes our galley is up but the living area of the boat is heated, 65 to 70 degrees, and so is the engine rooms. All the cabinet door have louveres so they are indirectly heated also. We installed a heat exchange at the galley floor, and in each of the bather rooms which blow directly at the sinks.

In 16 years the only area we had freeze was the stern deck sink as we do not heat that area. So if you have bow or stern wash downs, sinks above the water line and not close to a heated area they could freeze. So the best/easiest is heat tape same as used on land.

Its best to fill the boats water tanks and use the tanks all the time, but especially in the winter as you can hear the domestic water pump come on to pressure up, so if there is a leak you will hear the pump. I have seen to many boats sink, come close to sinking and/or water damage being hooked up the domestic water, so we use the tanks 100%.
Geez, I have seen those louver galley doors, and wondered why they were louver. Just thought it was an aesthetic preference...duh, I should have known better. Of course, the louver helps with the air flow.

Phil,
Does the water pump only run when the holding tank is the primary water source? When the boat is pressurized by shore water it doesn't need the pump, right?

And here's part 2 of my dumb newbie question. How does the boat know whether to draw water from the tank or shore? Is there a valve for that?
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Old 25-01-2014, 16:57   #947
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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I reviewed the comments I saw, and didn't quite quote it right. Actually, what he said was that he is getting heat on the boat from his reverse cycle system even with ice on the water. No comment about additional resistance heating...

(Turns out the other part of his comment was about a Fujitzu ductless system in a land installation, and that's the one where he was getting a good supply of hot air at 10° and the manual says it should work to -10°.)

Sorry for my original version

-Chris
Chris,
Don't apologize. I appreciate you sharing info that may be helpful. A ductless system sounds very interesting, I'll have to google that.
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Old 25-01-2014, 17:00   #948
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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We don't winter on the boat as Milwaukee just doesn't have a dock in a neighborhood that is safe, but we have many cold weekends. I second the use of fans to eliminate cold spots and mold. You need to watch lockers as moisture will gather near the hull. My diesel keeps warm from the hot water heater connection. Ceramic heaters and the heat pump will keep you warm. I have to add a second 30 amp power feed to run the second heater. It is brought in down the cowl. I crack the hatch when cooking and direct a fan to push the steam outside. I suggest putting carpet on the deck and dock as it gets slick with frost. Last year I took a big fall getting off, bowled the dog down the spur, know one was hurt.
Greg, thanks for the carpet suggestion. Glad that you didn't get hurt during your spill, or the dog. I wonder if shrink wrapped boats still get frost on the deck?
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Old 25-01-2014, 17:02   #949
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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GG:
Just be glad you did NOT need to live aboard in Boston this winter. Hopefully next year will be warmer!!
Chris, your right, this winter in Boston(and many other places) has been torturous. I'll be glad to see Spring.
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Old 26-01-2014, 05:07   #950
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Phil,
Does the water pump only run when the holding tank is the primary water source? When the boat is pressurized by shore water it doesn't need the pump, right?

And here's part 2 of my dumb newbie question. How does the boat know whether to draw water from the tank or shore? Is there a valve for that?

Some terminology: "holding" tank is black water (head effluent), and "freshwater" tank is.... fresh water

When city water (shorewater) is turned on, it provides it's own pressure... so the pressure valve in the DC fresh water pump never senses pressure loss, the pump never turns itself on. (More often, I think, folks just turn off DC power to the freshwater pump, when city water is turned on.)

There's also a check valve in the system -- sometimes separate, sometimes in the fresh water pump -- so shore water doesn't backfill your freshwater tanks.

Ref that ductless heater thing: I think I mentioned something like that before, too, maybe a Mitsubishi model... or maybe I was talking to my neighbor about it

Could be worth a look, in any case, but could also be that newer reverse cycle air conditioner/heaters really have become efficient enough so the only leaping through hoops might simply be to update your existing -- plumbed, ducted -- units. That could be worth a check, too. (The bubba in the other forum who commented about having good heat from his installed unit cruises in Barnegat Bay, NJ, so his weather is maybe similar enough for comparison...)

-Chris
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Old 26-01-2014, 07:50   #951
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Some terminology: "holding" tank is black water (head effluent), and "freshwater" tank is.... fresh water

When city water (shorewater) is turned on, it provides it's own pressure... so the pressure valve in the DC fresh water pump never senses pressure loss, the pump never turns itself on. (More often, I think, folks just turn off DC power to the freshwater pump, when city water is turned on.)

There's also a check valve in the system -- sometimes separate, sometimes in the fresh water pump -- so shore water doesn't backfill your freshwater tanks.

Ref that ductless heater thing: I think I mentioned something like that before, too, maybe a Mitsubishi model... or maybe I was talking to my neighbor about it

Could be worth a look, in any case, but could also be that newer reverse cycle air conditioner/heaters really have become efficient enough so the only leaping through hoops might simply be to update your existing -- plumbed, ducted -- units. That could be worth a check, too. (The bubba in the other forum who commented about having good heat from his installed unit cruises in Barnegat Bay, NJ, so his weather is maybe similar enough for comparison...)

-Chris
Chris, thanks for terminology clarification and the explanation of how the water system operates. I guess these are things that I will eventually learn once the boat comes. But, I do feel better having a general idea ahead of time. Plus, it helps when I am asking questions while boat shopping.

Your right, that Fujitzu system looks very similar to the Mitsubishi that you had mentioned. It might be ok for the salon, but I don't think I could see having those big boxes mounted in every cabin, too bulky.
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Old 27-01-2014, 10:31   #952
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

The reason I choice a diesel boiler is:

1) Did not want raw water circulating in the boat - I had all the though hulls filled in, 7 through hulls, except the engine intake through hulls. All water is pump up and over board above the water line, and the toilets are fresh water.
2) The heat exchangers are small about the shoe box size, size 10 - We installed them in the stateroom hanging closets, under the sink in the bath room, under the galley sink, and an enclosure in the salon which also houses the boiler exhaust as I want the exhaust above the rub rail and up high.
3) The boiler was the easiest to install – 1 Ό holes had to be drilled for the hose. However the exchange vents required a 3” hole. I advise you to have an installed, design, size and help with the install.
4) The hot water retains heat better than hot air. The distance from the boiler to the front head is about 40 ft, so hot air would have cooled down to much.

The domestic water pump pressure sensor has been answered. However, I would not connect the boat to the domestic water. Fill the tank and use the a water pump.

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Old 27-01-2014, 16:14   #953
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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The reason I choice a diesel boiler is:

1) Did not want raw water circulating in the boat - I had all the though hulls filled in, 7 through hulls, except the engine intake through hulls. All water is pump up and over board above the water line, and the toilets are fresh water.
2) The heat exchangers are small about the shoe box size, size 10 - We installed them in the stateroom hanging closets, under the sink in the bath room, under the galley sink, and an enclosure in the salon which also houses the boiler exhaust as I want the exhaust above the rub rail and up high.
3) The boiler was the easiest to install – 1 Ό holes had to be drilled for the hose. However the exchange vents required a 3” hole. I advise you to have an installed, design, size and help with the install.
4) The hot water retains heat better than hot air. The distance from the boiler to the front head is about 40 ft, so hot air would have cooled down to much.

The domestic water pump pressure sensor has been answered. However, I would not connect the boat to the domestic water. Fill the tank and use the a water pump.
Phil, thanks for the good point. Especially helping with installation. I will definitely make sure that I am present during the install, that way I will know where the copper runs (wait...is it run with copper?)
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Old 28-01-2014, 10:20   #954
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

We went with the recomend thick durable hose. You could go with copper or PBC but the install would have been longer and more expensive, as the run is turns, up and down. Also we concerned about the hot water retaining heat for the longer runs. We installed the winter of 1999. That was 13 years ago. We had NO plans on being a live aboard for this long.
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Old 07-02-2014, 10:37   #955
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

A 60 ft boat’s maintenance can be less/about the same cost of a 30 to 40 ft. October thru March, winter/cold weather months, maintenance is about 50 bucks, May thru September $250.00. May – Engine Room/engines, June – sanitation/bilge/electronics, July and August – paint/varnish/oil, September – Webasto service and finish up odds and ends.

Each year I make a schedule/budget for major maintenance and improvement for the year. This year is; pull the boat/bottom paint – $2,000, VHF/AIS, - $1,000, main toilet and hoses – $1,000. Regular maintenance - $2,000, improvements - $4,000, Total – $6,000.00 for this year.

I still do 90% of the maintenance and improvements. If I had it done to would be at 2 to 3 times as most is labor intensive. However, as I am getting older, the more I am having done espcially the heavy and diry/mess stuff. The old body sure pays for it the next day/week/month.
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Old 10-02-2014, 10:57   #956
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

Just curious could it be that the GG posts are the all time winner when it comes to the interest raised and # of hits? Single mom with multiple kids nu bee to boats wants to out of the blue jump aboard big boat for new life style. This has certainly spiced up the site. Lots of information and advise-encouragement and naysayers aplenty. Lots for GG to think about. When the posts first started I was thinking it was a joke but I think it is obviously real. Hopefully GG will be able to sort through all this stuff and fall in with the learning curve and things will work out good lucki.
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Old 10-02-2014, 15:40   #957
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

I just hope she has a lot of extra cash after buying the boat, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't have a good feeling about how this is going to turn out.
Maybe she will find some good mechanical help that is honest
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Old 10-02-2014, 15:53   #958
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

I'm a strong believer in filling the fresh water tank as required and using the boats fresh water system instead of leaving a hose from city water on. With city pressure even a small failure in your plumbing system could let an unlimited supply of city water flow into your boat. Even in the summer I wouldn't do that. In the winter you also have the possibility of the exterior hose freezing.
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Old 10-02-2014, 16:32   #959
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

I just experienced an awful situation. I am restoring a Bruce Roberts Mauritius steel 44 pilot house. It has a dockside hook-up for pressurized water. Love it. Don't have to listen to water pump when at dock plus keeps tanks full. When I leave the boat I always (except once) close the valve on the boat side and also the valve on the water side. I've have used it for almost 2 years without a drip. I have two auto bilge pumps capable of 2000 GPH.
Three weeks ago I reached the top of the dock and realized I hadn't closed the valve. I was tired and figured it was OK since I had left it on 12 hours a day for a long time without a problem. Next morning the the water was 2 ft over the floorboards submerging half the engine. The inner hose had slipped off. Lucky I have V-Drive so engine is high but feared for my Lehman 2711e. Also was working on bilge pump so only one was working.
Two weeks later, after pulling everything off the boat including all cabinet and locker liners and using multiple heaters and blowers I am finally getting on top of it. Also ran gallons of oil through the engine and changed 6 filters twice. Engine seems fine now. I got lucky.
Stupid? Absolutely. I have run boats for over 50 years in the Caribe, Med, Northwest & Alaska.
Everyone has their opinion but, the bottom line is, that one mistake can sink a boat.
Create checklists and use them religiously.
Hate to learn from my mistakes at my age especially when I already know what I should do.
By the way: My wife & I went to Paris with no return ticket and a six month old child. We had less than $500. Everyone said we were nuts (1971). Stayed in Europe for a year. Wouldn't trade that experience for anything.
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Old 10-02-2014, 16:49   #960
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

Not to hijack this thread, and I probably will start my own, but GG's situation is familiar to me so maybe this will be of some help.

Some of my profile is quite similar to GG. I'm in real estate, but focus more on new builds at this point. During the soft market there wasn't any money to be made on house "refits". Also, I founded and run an investment management company. I have a finance/engineering background and in addition to home design/build I grew up building my off road vehicles. Like her, I'm also an adventurous DIY kind of guy, but with very little boating experience. (as a side note and not to draw any flaming but rather to provide context, my real estate situation sounds similar to GG, but additionally my investment company would be ongoing as long as I have internet access at least every other day or so, and generates a comfortable amount of income.)

We are also looking to transition to liveaboard. The idea would also be a 7 person situation. My wife with our 3 year old, and my brother and his wife with their 8 & 10 year old. I absolutely love the traditional trawler look of the Nordhavns and similar. Seems GG and I have very similar taste. When I began looking at boats I always keep drifting toward the exact situation that GG is. 60-70' single screw trawlers, especially if I could find one with three levels. There is just so much space, and the layouts of the cabins can be full beam, and the community areas are well separated. I would be able to work easily in those engine rooms as they are massive.

One of the differences with my situation and GG is that both myself and my brother are able to maintain the systems ourselves. We would both have experience and training in diesel mechanics and basic handyman stuff like wiring/plumbing/hvac. We would also both be looking to get our certs to pilot the vessel ourselves over the next two years.

I'd heard all of, and seen some of, the negatives of multihulls. Combined with my love of trawler and traditional monohull styling, in my mind I'd completely sworn off the idea of multihull. I was saying many of the exact same things that GG says. "The layout sucks, not enough deck space, beam is too wide..." in addition to the other stuff like "they ride too rough, feels like I'm sleeping in a coffin, etc.."

Having read this LONGGGGG thread start to finish (as well as GG's blog) I felt like she was quite a bit like me and I knew exactly where she was coming from with all the opinions she had. But as her journey progressed and I read some of the comments here, I got curious about some of the multihull options. The question in my mind, "just because I can buy a 70' displacement monohull, hire a crew to help, and take on what will be a very considerable cost, is that what I WANT to do?"

So I took my knowledge of real estate to the boating world. What do people want, and why do they want it? Virtually EVERYONE in real estate has converted from small separated rooms to preferring more of a 'greatroom' layout. No client has ever complained to me that the bedrooms I designed were too small, but without exception it is always that they want lighter more open community space and a kitchen that connects with the main living area so the cook can interact. Also high on preferences is that the master bedroom is easily accessed but somewhat isolated.

Taking that info and looking for it in the yacht world (realizing the need to fit 7 people) consistently led me to power cats in the 50' range. Admittedly, I haven't seen a single power cat built pre-2008 that caught my eye at all. But considering what it would cost me to own a 70' trawler, there are some really nice modern 50' power cats that would cost MUCH less in total, and even more importantly, the liveaboard experience would be much less about maintaining a ship, and more about enjoying the journey and spending time with the kids.

I gotta tell ya GG, I REALLY think you should revisit the idea of a modern powercat around 50' length.
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