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Old 12-02-2013, 12:09   #271
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

It's not that hard to learn the basics for operation in mild conditions, and to learn to use weather forecasting and good judgment to avoid challenging conditions when one is first learning and close to ports of refuge. A week in and out of a busy harbor with a good skipper can cover the basics of safety requirements, lights, sounds, signals, and charts, anchoring, mooring, and docking in a variety of places and conditions. The people who take one-day classroom classes given (in the USA) by NASBLA (Natl. Assn. of State Boating Law Admins.) affiliated agencies are ahead of most boaters in the instruction they receive, and those who take ASA or US Sailing courses do so in a few days to a week.

Yes, ideally, at this stage Galaxy Girl should have taken some steps to increase her knowledge, make herself more independent while afloat, decrease the chance of making an expensive mistake, and give her (if not her critics) more peace of mind. If she plans to commit to a "life aquatic", than it's reasonable to expect her to complete some baby steps before plunging in, such as
-- taking a one-day or on line class, or multiple evening series of classes with a group such as a state boating agency, Coast Guard Aux, US Power Squadrons, etc.;
-- taking a two-day or so power boat handing class;
-- getting a class -- doesn't have to be on water or marine focused even -- or some instruction about diesel engines and related systems;
-- hanging around boat yards and people fixing boats;
-- begging her way on board power trawlers for day or short overnight trips.
Perhaps GG has done some of these or have them in her plans.

Some of these options are very inexpensive, and would probably save GG money in the not very long run by focusing her choices, and learning much more about how the boat world works -- which can be very handy when you're negotiating repairs in a boat yard, for example. Most boat yard workers are honest and ethical, but like on land, not all, and even the most diligent boat yard people can flounder if they are not given good direction and if the skipper is not of much help in diagnosing a problem or setting boundaries and priorities.

The other thing I don't recall seeing here is the rough distance of the passage back home with the purchased boat. Without GG giving away too much info so people can guess the particular location of the boat, perhaps she could give a rough notion of distance, and whether there are many ports more or less near the return route so that the trip could be broken up into segments and she and her family could get voyage practice entering and leaving ports, and so that she would have more options for crew.

Also, will the blue water passage be in waters that particularly require a close eye on the calendar for weather routing and planning, since the trawler is not going to be fast enough to avoid some weather systems? The insurance company might also have some say, in addition to approving the crew, on which waters the boat transits during particular times of year. Not to mention, favorable conditions can cut expenses significantly by reducing fuel bills, wear and tear, and crew misery. Voyage route planning is a critically useful skill.
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Old 12-02-2013, 12:12   #272
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
Guys (and gals). GG thinks I'm an ass but what do I care.

Think about this. A 50 tons motor vessel. A 2 month sea journey ( well 8 knots x 24 hours equals 200 nm per day x 60 days equals 12000 nm) circumference of earth is? ( figure this out and get back to me).

And she's going to learn how to sail this baby on that voyage.

Seriously, unless you run into major storm (big time storm) blue water on a boat that size is a breeze. The hard part is manuvering in tight places, docking, etc etc etc.

She is going to learn how to do this on a couple of day sails around the harbour?

Earth calling earth calling!
No, a storm on a boat that size is still a storm. It is still a boat, not a ship. And what she learns depends on who is teaching her. I would hope that she would get the basics of chart and electronic navigation, pilotage, steering and watchkeeping, rules of the road, maintenance and troubleshooting, radar, aids to navigation, planning and provisioning, safety, first aid, and water survival, stuff like that. I would also hope to see her skipper and crew work with her for a couple of days at the end of the voyage on docking and close quarter maneuvering. The idea is to get her competent to TAKE those day sails around the harbor and get her started on the right track. Rebuilding engines and finding longitude by Lunars and writing a brilliant thesis on Marine Architecture in ancient Phoenicia are not required to get started. Think of it as boating 101. And there is still the Power Squadron and similar courses available to her when she gets the boat home. I am a professional and I say it can be done. After her delivery she will already be more knowledgeable than some others I have known who dropped a few mil on their first boat, bigger than most people's house. This is doable, depending on her, her mentor, and the boat.

Anyone who knows better should consider volunteering to crew on the delivery. The fact is, she is determined to buy a boat and I don't see how anyone can stop her, so how about either helping or forgetting about it. Your naysaying is a waste of bandwidth because I doubt if it will have the slightest effect whatsoever. Women can be stubborn like that. I know... I married three of them.
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Old 12-02-2013, 13:16   #273
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

Unless this woman (??) is (very) wealthy enough to buy a large (80ft) vessel with 4+ staterooms and a full-time paid crew, she is either short a few screws or just plain stupid. Worse still if she does actually follow through (which I doubt) then she seriously risks harm to herself, her 4 children and others along her course of passage. This thread has given GG too much credibility for somebody with so little experience, who has done so little research, and has so little basis in reality. And BTW, why are the kids not in school. She certainly does not seem skilled enough to "home" school aboard a large vessel underway.
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Old 12-02-2013, 13:37   #274
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

I know this is apples and oranges, but the Dutch government thought Laura Dekker didn't have the maturity or skill set to sail solo around the world at the tender age of 13. In reality the government had no idea how well versed Laura was in seamanship (she has a 6th sense, better than most all sailors), or how well she does on her own. They kept her from leaving for a year, but once she got off she proved all the naysayers wrong and continues to display her sailing skills in her new homeland of New Zealand.

I'm not comparing the sailing and seamanship skills of Laura vs GG, as there is no comparison but rather the mind set of naysayers. I come from more training than most everyone on the forum, but in a small boat would defer to Laura's skill set if the chit was hitting the fan. There is no reason that whatever boat GG decides on, she will learn its systems, how to deal with sea states, and everything else to be a competent skipper of her boat.

As GrowleyMonster mentioned about strong willed women, they are going to do what they want, so either help or stay clear, this is what GG wants to do.
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:00   #275
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by Greggegner View Post
Why over play this? GG isn't leaving for a round the world by herself after two months stepping on the boat. It will take time to develop the skills, but taking a 100k pound boat out on a nice day in the harbor isn't that dangerous to the people on board. The dock might get a bang when she gets back. As long as she continues to match her trips to her skill this just isn't that bad.
I agree. She has acknowledged this as just another step forward.
For a reality check; compare GG's preparation to date with some of those harbor based boaties rocketing about in a 8m boat with 250HP outboard. If I was in my dinghy or kayak I know who I'd be worried about. Same with fuel consumption; small boats can use a hell of a lot of fuel. Live-aboards spend most of their time at dock.
Or, danger at sea? Someone in an under-equipped yacht with no-one but themselves to worry about is a more likely danger.
GG's got kids and she's getting the sort of vessel that can keep them safe.
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:24   #276
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
It's not that hard to learn the basics for operation in mild conditions, and to learn to use weather forecasting and good judgment to avoid challenging conditions when one is first learning and close to ports of refuge. A week in and out of a busy harbor with a good skipper can cover the basics of safety requirements, lights, sounds, signals, and charts, anchoring, mooring, and docking in a variety of places and conditions. The people who take one-day classroom classes given (in the USA) by NASBLA (Natl. Assn. of State Boating Law Admins.) affiliated agencies are ahead of most boaters in the instruction they receive, and those who take ASA or US Sailing courses do so in a few days to a week.

Yes, ideally, at this stage Galaxy Girl should have taken some steps to increase her knowledge, make herself more independent while afloat, decrease the chance of making an expensive mistake, and give her (if not her critics) more peace of mind. If she plans to commit to a "life aquatic", than it's reasonable to expect her to complete some baby steps before plunging in, such as
-- taking a one-day or on line class, or multiple evening series of classes with a group such as a state boating agency, Coast Guard Aux, US Power Squadrons, etc.;
-- taking a two-day or so power boat handing class;
-- getting a class -- doesn't have to be on water or marine focused even -- or some instruction about diesel engines and related systems;
-- hanging around boat yards and people fixing boats;
-- begging her way on board power trawlers for day or short overnight trips.
Perhaps GG has done some of these or have them in her plans.

Some of these options are very inexpensive, and would probably save GG money in the not very long run by focusing her choices, and learning much more about how the boat world works -- which can be very handy when you're negotiating repairs in a boat yard, for example. Most boat yard workers are honest and ethical, but like on land, not all, and even the most diligent boat yard people can flounder if they are not given good direction and if the skipper is not of much help in diagnosing a problem or setting boundaries and priorities.

The other thing I don't recall seeing here is the rough distance of the passage back home with the purchased boat. Without GG giving away too much info so people can guess the particular location of the boat, perhaps she could give a rough notion of distance, and whether there are many ports more or less near the return route so that the trip could be broken up into segments and she and her family could get voyage practice entering and leaving ports, and so that she would have more options for crew.

Also, will the blue water passage be in waters that particularly require a close eye on the calendar for weather routing and planning, since the trawler is not going to be fast enough to avoid some weather systems? The insurance company might also have some say, in addition to approving the crew, on which waters the boat transits during particular times of year. Not to mention, favorable conditions can cut expenses significantly by reducing fuel bills, wear and tear, and crew misery. Voyage route planning is a critically useful skill.
A boat of the size and tonnage she is talking about is going to require a captain. She will have a hard time getting insurance without one. I don't know why kind of boats the posters on here have, but, handling a boat of the size she wants is not for beginners. Just wait till she runs into a docking situation with current, wind, etc. Anyone got any idea what kind of windage a boat this size will have.
And, as for experience, my wife and I just finished a 4-year, 19,000 mile cruise. Been boating for over 60 years and still learn something new every time I go out. Taking a "one or two day course" is not going to give you the kind of experience that is going to be required here.
A few years ago I was part of a crew that delivered a Flemming 55 from Burr Yachts in Annapolis to Bayfield, WI. Running 2 500hp Cummins our fuel bill ran $750-1000/day. We were running about 12kts and could have run slower but were on a schedule. A Flemming, with fuel/water, cruising gear runs about 70,000lbs. This was with new engines burning about 25/gal/hr. The boat she is talking about I've heard is somewhere north of 100,000lbs. Imagine the fuel cost at today's marina price.
Also read in this thread that she wasn't looking at a Krogen or one other boat. They were out of her budget range. If that is true, well..............
I just can't believe the responders on here that are encouraging her. What you should be doing is trying to protect her and tell her what she really needs to know. I admire anyone who wants to get out there but there are limits as to how you start. GG is definitely not at a proper starting point.
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Old 12-02-2013, 15:35   #277
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

Barpilot,

That is why I've been suggesting the PDQ 34 at 15,000 lbs. Care to add your take on blue water capable boats that are this light?
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:05   #278
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by RabidRabbit View Post
I dont beleive the stated fuel burn can be near correct, maybe 4 gph per engine? It seems this large boat is more fuel thrifty than a marine trader 40? Correct me if I'm wrong but a lehman 120 in a MT uses 2.2 gph at just under 5 kts, 5.3 at 8ish and creeps to 7.3 gph at full throttle, roughly a bit over 10 kts. and this is per engine. Now in dead calm these will be slightly lower. I recently met a fellow who did a delivery in less then ideal conditions, bash through large waves and wind, to maintain a decent speed and steerage he ran it pretty hard and used around 6 gph per engine. Theres no way GGs crew could live in 40' MT, so I'm guessing her new boat will be much large. How then can it use so little fuel? Does 4 gph seem low to anyone else for a boat this size?

I think it's off, too, but not sure given potential this could be a single-screw installation. OTOH, if it's a twin I think 4 GPH per engine does seem possible. Depends on hull form, length at waterline, engines, gears, etc....

Our diesels are 450-hp each, and use about 3 GPH (each) at about 1000 RPMs... which gives us about 8.0 knots in calms seas, slightly above our calculated hull speed.

(That quoted from Passagemaking question???, post #62.)

But our waterline length is significantly shorter (circa 40') than GG's target boat and our diesels aren't optimized for running at hull speed. Nor is our hull, for that matter.

Maybe we'll have to wait and see that GG's boat actually is.

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Old 12-02-2013, 16:10   #279
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Growley,

I think it is commendable that GG wants her kids to have their own staterooms, but that sure bumps up the size of the vessel. On the PDQ 34 she could have her stateroom, 2 kids could share the other stateroom, 2 more kids could sleep on the dinette which converts to a double, and the last kid could sleep on the settee that is on the port side opposite the helm station. Everyone has a comfy place to sleep out of the weather, and when conditions are nice could enjoy the stars up on the flybridge. It would get close to 4X the nm/per gallon at 18 kt and 12X at 8 kt. I don't know about her, but I would hate to drop $8000 on a single fill up.

I think that doesn't account for Mama on board, too...

Can't imagine voluntarily living on a boat like that for 365 days/year, anyway. Kick Little Joey out of bed to have breakfast.. quick, clear away dinner so Little Joey can go to bed... etc.

Or they'd have to sleep in shifts...



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Old 12-02-2013, 16:16   #280
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Maybe you should go back and read the ENTIRE thread before commenting. I'm not going to explain my position, yet again, to someone who is late in the game.
I think that some of you out there either have horribly miserable lives and take pleasure from annoying others, or maybe believe there is no room left at sea for a new boater, in your twisted ways of thinking. I suppose you were never a new boater yourself? You popped out of your mama's belly holding an oar, right?
You know of the "horror" of boating accidents, huh? I am concerned about your ability to sail and endangering my family.
Nice rant
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:25   #281
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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I think that doesn't account for Mama on board, too...

Can't imagine voluntarily living on a boat like that for 365 days/year, anyway. Kick Little Joey out of bed to have breakfast.. quick, clear away dinner so Little Joey can go to bed... etc.

Maybe they could sleep in shifts?



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I thought GG mentioned she would be keeping her home and living there 1/2 the time.
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:26   #282
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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I believe a well equipped sailing cat with wind can do much than 8 knots
In some conditions most definitely but how much does that well equipped sailing cat suitable for several liveaboards cost in comparison to a relatively cheap trawler?
How much fuel will the difference buy?
I doubt a lagoon 43 will cut it in the size/comfort category
Quote:
What speed does 4 gph translate to in a sailing cat under motor?
all depends on the size of cat and engine.
I would suggest that for the size of family something around 65 ft would be required so in that case a pure power cat would probably be the cheaper option over a sailing version though something like this could be a nice compromise though somwhat smaller than is probably required for a family of that size.
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:27   #283
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by RabidRabbit View Post
I dont beleive the stated fuel burn can be near correct, maybe 4 gph per engine? It seems this large boat is more fuel thrifty than a marine trader 40? Correct me if I'm wrong but a lehman 120 in a MT uses 2.2 gph at just under 5 kts, 5.3 at 8ish and creeps to 7.3 gph at full throttle, roughly a bit over 10 kts. and this is per engine. Now in dead calm these will be slightly lower. I recently met a fellow who did a delivery in less then ideal conditions, bash through large waves and wind, to maintain a decent speed and steerage he ran it pretty hard and used around 6 gph per engine. Theres no way GGs crew could live in 40' MT, so I'm guessing her new boat will be much large. How then can it use so little fuel? Does 4 gph seem low to anyone else for a boat this size?
I had a look in the Voyaging Under Power book and found three boats that get 8 knots and 4 gallons/hour or a little better. These are Kanter 57, Kasten Vagabond 50 and Krogen 52. The beams are rather narrow around 15 feet. Each has a single engine from 175 to 230 horsepower.
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Old 12-02-2013, 16:40   #284
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

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Originally Posted by Barpilot View Post
A boat of the size and tonnage she is talking about is going to require a captain.
You assume she will be US based?
I reckon most other places in the world would not require a captain as such.

Quote:
She will have a hard time getting insurance without one.
Again, the above comment applies.
Quote:
I don't know why kind of boats the posters on here have, but, handling a boat of the size she wants is not for beginners. Just wait till she runs into a docking situation with current, wind, etc.
A sensible owner not on a time schedule would not bring their boat in if conditions were not favourable.
Quote:
Anyone got any idea what kind of windage a boat this size will have.
What size boat are you talking about? I see no mention yet of what it is she has supposedly bought.
Quote:
Taking a "one or two day course" is not going to give you the kind of experience that is going to be required here.
True
Quote:
A few years ago I was part of a crew that delivered a Flemming 55 from Burr Yachts in Annapolis to Bayfield, WI. Running 2 500hp Cummins our fuel bill ran $750-1000/day. We were running about 12kts and could have run slower but were on a schedule.
So what.
A few years ago I took a 50ft cray boat to Vanuatu, it ran a single 6lxb Gardner at 8 knots using 8lph burning around $250 a day.
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Old 12-02-2013, 18:19   #285
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Re: Completely Overwhelmed

There seems to be a double standard in this thread as some have perhaps taken the OP’s title of being ‘Overwhelmed’ as permission to doubt her abilities.

For most people, buying a home is their most ambitious decision and GG specializes in helping others. Why then should she doubt her ability to manage making her own decisions in this endeavor?

Some thoughts to consider:

‘The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right.’
Henry Ward Beecher

‘Good advice is something a man gives when he is too old to set a bad example.’
Francois de La Rochefoucauld
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