Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-03-2014, 11:44   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 777
Charter Boats and engine life

Hello all,

Is it safe to assume that charter boats are usually run at hull speed to get clients were they want to be quickly rather than slower for fuel economy?

Do Detroits with engines that have been run at hull have a shorter lifespan than slower run engines?

I'm considering a charter boat, but not sure if I should be concerned about the engines having been run hard.
__________________

__________________
GalaxyGirl
5KidsAndaBoat
GalaxyGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 11:52   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

I would also be concerned about the transmission on an ex-bareboat charter.
__________________

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 12:10   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 777
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
I would also be concerned about the transmission on an ex-bareboat charter.
OK. I will be. Thanks.
__________________
GalaxyGirl
5KidsAndaBoat
GalaxyGirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 12:15   #4
Registered User
 
krafthaus's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Saskatoon, Canada & Eastern Caribbean
Boat: Lagoon 420
Posts: 409
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

This is an interesting topic. We charter and I don't think I run the engine harder than I would if I was the owner. Running high RPM's just burns more fuel and is hardly worth an extra half or one knot. I'd hope most people are smart enough to realize that.

A pro is that reputable charter companies will do the upkeep on schedule so preventive work and oil changes should be by the book. And stuff should get fixed when problems are brought to their attention by the charterers.

Transmissions and sail drives are another matter and they could see more abuse than the engines. The boat we will likely buy is a Lagoon 420 with 40HP Yanmars and SD50 saildrives. I think those engines should be good for 8000 hours. But the saildrives I'd want to make sure were serviced recently with a good history record to give some assurances there aren't problems with the cone clutches or other bits.
__________________
Wherever we want to go, we go. That's what a ship is you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs. But what a ship is...really is, is freedom. ~Johnny Depp as Capt. Jack Sparrow
krafthaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 12:17   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
atoll's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: gettin naughty on the beach in cornwall
Boat: 63 custom alloy sloop,macwester26,prout snowgoose 37 elite catamaran!
Posts: 9,310
Images: 75
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

if it is an ex DAY charter boat it is concievable that the cost of replacing worn out engines is not as cost effective as replacing the vessel for a new one.
__________________
my catamaran building project updates http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...36#post2502136
atoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 12:23   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
jackdale's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 5,040
Images: 1
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Quote:
Originally Posted by krafthaus View Post
The boat we will likely buy is a Lagoon 420 with 40HP Yanmars and SD50 saildrives. I think those engines should be good for 8000 hours. But the saildrives I'd want to make sure were serviced recently with a good history record to give some assurances there aren't problems with the cone clutches or other bits.
Have you seen

Beware - Yanmar SD-50 Saildrive
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Ocean Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203,204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 12:27   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Caribbean winters, North Dakota/Minnesota summers
Boat: Leopard 39 Owners Version
Posts: 332
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

well, several things to consider.. (I'm a charter boat owner), a charter engine should be well maintained, that doesn't only mean regular service intervals, but anything that isn't working right, will have to have been fixed. Charter companies are not going to chance or want to spend the money to fix up an engine, so they should be in good shape not only after a phase out, but all the while in charter. I'm sure problems can arise, but they will be addressed or the boat won't be going out.

As far as running up the rpm's.. most charterers' that are not owners might consider the difference in fuel consumption from hull speed to cruising speed. Having been around diesel engines all my life as a farmer, running close to wide open will not have such a bad effect on things as long as heat and oil are kept in good order. It is actually good to run wide open for a time after long idles or cruising. On our own boat, there has been an occasion or two where we have had to run up the rpm's to get somewhere.. I've motored into some strong winds, waves, and currents where we didn't have a choice, and not let it bother me much. Although, the preference would be not to have had to.
As far as transmissions.. same goes.. heat and oil need to be in check. You could run a leak down test on the engine.. that will tell you a lot about the motor.. exhaust temp too, and you could run an oil analysys on the transmission.. and that will tell you lot too. Plus, with experience, just a quick test drive and observation of the motor and transmission.. could tell an experienced person what they are getting.

I think you'ld have to have the same concerns on a private boat.. even on a new boat you might have to have concerns about if you have a lemon or not.

I've been pretty pleased with what I've seen in the charter boats.. and we've used quite a few of them.. not just our own.
__________________
Privleoplag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 12:46   #8
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,310
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Are you talking about a boat which has been chartered with a professional captain, or a boat which has been bareboat chartered?? The former has probably been better taken care of than average, while the latter can be beat up.

For examples, the captained charter is far less likely to have someone hit the starter button when the engines are running, and less likely to have been run with low oil levels and/or high temperatures.

As mentioned above, diesels are happier running hard, if they are not run hot.
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 13:06   #9
Zai
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Athens
Boat: 2011 Bavaria 36 Cruiser
Posts: 144
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

You can always send an oil sample from the engine and have it analysed.
__________________
Zai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 13:23   #10
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,024
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Has anyone ever gotten any useful info out of an oil analysis? I've had hundreds and never once ever had a component condemned based on an oil analysis, not once.
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 14:19   #11
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,980
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl View Post
Hello all,

Is it safe to assume that charter boats are usually run at hull speed to get clients were they want to be quickly rather than slower for fuel economy?

Do Detroits with engines that have been run at hull have a shorter lifespan than slower run engines?

I'm considering a charter boat, but not sure if I should be concerned about the engines having been run hard.

"Hull speed" is often taken to mean displacement hull speed, which is calculatable: 1.34 * (SQRT of LWL). Most displacement boats are powered to attain this speed without any particular engine flogging required. (Factoids from the Beebe book and others apply.)

Running slower -- for example 1.00 * (SQRT of LWL) -- usually results in better fuel economy, even less stress on the engine(s)... although there may be some slight risks from under-loading. Relatively easily managed.

All that said... if you're looking at a planing hull, it may be more likely it's usually been run at "cruise speed" which is sort of a euphemism for the approx. RPMs and speed your hull and engine(s) is/are meant to be comfortable. That's often said to be 75% of max RPMs, 80% of max RPMs, 200 RPMs "off the top" and so forth. Depending on who you listen to, manufacturer's recommendations, etc.

Charter operators usually have to balance between getting clients to the destination -- and using too many boatloads of gas to do it. "Cruise speed" is often about the best compromise available. Exceeding that "cruise speed" often results in a much much higher burn rate, not particularly economical from a business sense. Running slightly slower than cruise speed is also not uncommon, since a few hundred RPMs lower may well result in lots less fuel consumption.

I'd suspect if the DDs have been well maintained and mostly run at "cruise speed" or lower, they're probably about as good as you'd expect from other comparable DDs with similar hours. Unless your mechanical surveyor finds factoids suggesting otherwise.

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 14:23   #12
Registered User
 
ranger42c's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Boat: 42' Sportfish
Posts: 2,980
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
Has anyone ever gotten any useful info out of an oil analysis? I've had hundreds and never once ever had a component condemned based on an oil analysis, not once.

Yes, but generally not so much as a one-time-shot, but rather from a series over time.

OTOH, metal filings could well show up on the first analysis, and that might indicate a specific wear point. I've not seen that first-hand, though.

-Chris
__________________
Selby Bay, South River, Chesapeake Bay, USA.
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 14:36   #13
Moderator
 
a64pilot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Albany Ga.
Boat: Island Packet 38
Posts: 17,024
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

The value of oil analysis is if done at each oil change, you may see a trend in one type of metal trending higher, but without a base line it's pretty much useless.
However if you cut open an oil filter that has been in service for a decent interval, if there are any oil filings they will of course be trapped in the filter
http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...s?autoview=SKU
__________________
a64pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2014, 18:52   #14
Registered User
 
krafthaus's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Saskatoon, Canada & Eastern Caribbean
Boat: Lagoon 420
Posts: 409
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Yes, I've seen that and am aware of the concerns especially around cone clutches. The Lagoon 420 we chartered for 2 weeks last January and 2 more this January has that Saildrive. The charter operator had to do a rebuild on them around 1500 hours. The key is not to go way over recommended, although recommended is something like 250 hours which is a bit ridiculous.

I'm thinking to learn to do it myself based on some good info on here and other sources and they should run trouble free.
__________________
Wherever we want to go, we go. That's what a ship is you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs. But what a ship is...really is, is freedom. ~Johnny Depp as Capt. Jack Sparrow
krafthaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2014, 09:08   #15
Registered User
 
rw58ph's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Roughwater, pilot house, 58 ft
Posts: 485
Re: Charter Boats and engine life

Quote:
Originally Posted by GalaxyGirl View Post
Hello all,

Is it safe to assume that charter boats are usually run at hull speed to get clients were they want to be quickly rather than slower for fuel economy?

Do Detroits with engines that have been run at hull have a shorter lifespan than slower run engines?

I'm considering a charter boat, but not sure if I should be concerned about the engines having been run hard.

What year and model Detroit, natural or turbo, and how many hours of the engine? Most Detroitís and Cats are rated for 7,500 to 10,000+ hours, proven/reliable engines and parts/service available. The Eagle has a 1978 DD 671, 6 cylinder, and natural which many older commercial and many pleasure have. Make sure you have the engine check/surveyed.

Depending on the boats hull type! Boats that run at hull speed are usually full displacement and/or heavy semi displacements and hull speed is about as fast as they will go. The Eagle hull speed is 7 to 10 knts, and the max is 10 to 12 knts.

As for running them hard I would think most charters push the engines. Time is money and are we there yet?
__________________

__________________
rw58ph is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charter, engine

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Books on astral travel, OBE and life after life Fidar The Library 23 06-11-2013 21:14
Charter Boats and Autopilots oregonsailor Pacific & South China Sea 9 06-04-2011 13:02
Land Life / Boat Life Ocean Girl Families, Kids and Pets Afloat 59 14-06-2010 03:04



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:21.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.