Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-11-2014, 01:02   #1
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Blank canvas for design

We have just started talking to naval architect to design our next boat and would be interested to hear what others think. The boat will most likely be built in aluminium. Below are the initial criteria I gave to the architect. What else would you have stipulated? No rush, wer're not in a position to commission the hull build until mid 2016. We will be contracting out the hull and superstructure but doing the fitout in house as we own a full service marine company.
The boat will be for blue water cruising including possibly high latitudes and be reliant on solar etc for power with generator solely as back up.
Around 18 metre
4000+ mile range
Single inboard mechanical diesel (Nanni or Yanmar etc)
Integral tankage
HP to reach displacement speed in most conditions
Sea going accommodation and wheel house concentrated aft
Owners cabin forard for at anchor
Sea going accommodation to double as guest accommodation for 4 extra pax
1.8 metre head height in engine room with workshop in separate compartment with full standing clearance (thwartships with minimum depth of 1.5 metre)
Full standing room in all accommodation spaces
4 watertight bulkheads minimum with watertight doors for all except collision bulkhead
Large galley with generous opening to aft cockpit for cook to socialize
Fore deck for tender stowage and secondary sundowner area
Walkaround decks
No flybridge
If flush fore deck then Portugese bridge
Fully bluewater capable
Fuel efficiency an important consideration
Please think outside the box. If weight in extremities an issue then compromises can be made (ie chain locker in centre of boat). Tell me how unrealistic my expectations are and suggest alternatives.
__________________

__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 05:49   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,579
Images: 240
Re: Blank canvas for design

You might consider joining the Metal Boat Society.
Welcome to the Metal Boat Society
Join MBS!
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 13:17   #3
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Blank canvas for design

Pete,

Other than a few pretty small variations you have just described the Dashew FPB 64. It's a couple of feet longer, and I don't think it has as many water tight doors as you specified. The flip side is the FPB is probably the gold standard in long range cruising in this size range with a good number of them already doing world cruises., and a lot of information about the boats available.

Even assuming you choose to go with a custom design, I would start with the FPB and modify from there.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 13:55   #4
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Re: Blank canvas for design

Thanks Gord.
Greg, I really admire the Dashews for their function and they will form the major part of the concept but I am trying to get something with more asthetic lines which is why I am going custom. I work with this architect as we are sales agent for boats he designs and he even managed to make a 43' glass bottom boat we commissioned look good, which is no easy task.
__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 14:40   #5
Registered User
 
Delancey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Miami, FL
Boat: sunk by irma
Posts: 3,462
Re: Blank canvas for design

I'd spend some time looking at some Dijkstra designs like the Besteaver. Nice boats.

Bestevaer 53ST Bestevaer II / K&M Yachtbuilders
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image.jpg
Views:	163
Size:	27.6 KB
ID:	90725  
__________________
Delancey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 14:43   #6
Moderator Emeritus
 
Coops's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NSW.Australia
Boat: Sunmaid 20, John Welsford Navigator
Posts: 9,550
Re: Blank canvas for design

Very nice, but he is after a power boat.

Coops.
__________________
When somebody told me that I was delusional, I almost fell off of my unicorn.
Coops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 14:52   #7
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Re: Blank canvas for design

That's right, we're crossing to the dark side.
__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 14:55   #8
Moderator Emeritus
 
Coops's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NSW.Australia
Boat: Sunmaid 20, John Welsford Navigator
Posts: 9,550
Re: Blank canvas for design

That's why it is in the power boat section no doubt.

Coops.
__________________
When somebody told me that I was delusional, I almost fell off of my unicorn.
Coops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 15:50   #9
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: Blank canvas for design

Howdy.

I imagine it must be exciting to be starting with a blank slate and designing one's dream boat.

What follows is written in a friendly tone, with the sole intent to further the topic's discussion. I have no doubt that our POVs, goals, and tastes will differ.

You mention "aesthetic" and since that means many things (each style may appeal to some but not others), I think it is always helpful to post a photo that shows some styles of boats that are close to the aesthetic (design or style) you most like. That helps others get a sense of what you like.

The Dashew FPB has already been mentioned. I was impressed by the considerable thought and design of that line of boats and I am sure his boats will be influencing many designers. From my POV, Dashew brings a lot of practical experience to the table when talking about long range cruising (sail or power) and I think it is clear his boats show it and often challenge some conventional thinking.

From your short list above I don't see any provision for "secondary power" or "sail assist" in case the single engine fails.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 16:41   #10
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Re: Blank canvas for design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
Howdy.

I imagine it must be exciting to be starting with a blank slate and designing one's dream boat.

What follows is written in a friendly tone, with the sole intent to further the topic's discussion. I have no doubt that our POVs, goals, and tastes will differ.

You mention "aesthetic" and since that means many things (each style may appeal to some but not others), I think it is always helpful to post a photo that shows some styles of boats that are close to the aesthetic (design or style) you most like. That helps others get a sense of what you like.

The Dashew FPB has already been mentioned. I was impressed by the considerable thought and design of that line of boats and I am sure his boats will be influencing many designers. From my POV, Dashew brings a lot of practical experience to the table when talking about long range cruising (sail or power) and I think it is clear his boats show it and often challenge some conventional thinking.

From your short list above I don't see any provision for "secondary power" or "sail assist" in case the single engine fails.
Firstly, I am only one half of a couple so she who must be obeyed gets a say. We have a Dashew in port at the moment and unfortunately, when SWMBO saw it her reaction was less than complimentary.
So, something with the form of a Fleming and the function of a Dashew should do quite nicely. Quite how that is to acheieved I'm not entirely certain so it's going to be an interesting journey with the designer.
The secondary power thing is something I struggle with. My original ideas was to install a Gardner and carry the bits needed to rebuild it but in a fuel efficient hull it is likely to consume more space than I want to relinquish so I have opted for single mechanical engine. I rejected sail as an alternative propulsion as if I was going to all that trouble I might as well carry on sailing. My final thoughts come down to a high output generator/motor mounted between the engine and transmission that can be used to generate high AC loads for welding etc. and be uncoupled from the engine and used as secondary propulsion in the event of engine failure. Back up genset would provide the power. I would still carry enough inventory to rebuild the engine at sea if necessary so steerage way is the main necessity.
I have actually sailed as engineer on a 96 metre fish processing ship with just such a system and had to use it on one occasion.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Fleming 55.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	28.1 KB
ID:	90729   Click image for larger version

Name:	Dashew 64.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	48.0 KB
ID:	90730  

__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 09:37   #11
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,058
Re: Blank canvas for design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTies View Post
We have just started talking to naval architect to design our next boat and would be interested to hear what others think. The boat will most likely be built in aluminium. Below are the initial criteria I gave to the architect. What else would you have stipulated? No rush, wer're not in a position to commission the hull build until mid 2016. We will be contracting out the hull and superstructure but doing the fitout in house as we own a full service marine company.
The boat will be for blue water cruising including possibly high latitudes and be reliant on solar etc for power with generator solely as back up.
Around 18 metre
4000+ mile range
Single inboard mechanical diesel (Nanni or Yanmar etc)
Integral tankage
HP to reach displacement speed in most conditions
Sea going accommodation and wheel house concentrated aft
Owners cabin forard for at anchor
Sea going accommodation to double as guest accommodation for 4 extra pax
1.8 metre head height in engine room with workshop in separate compartment with full standing clearance (thwartships with minimum depth of 1.5 metre)
Full standing room in all accommodation spaces
4 watertight bulkheads minimum with watertight doors for all except collision bulkhead
Large galley with generous opening to aft cockpit for cook to socialize
Fore deck for tender stowage and secondary sundowner area
Walkaround decks
No flybridge
If flush fore deck then Portugese bridge
Fully bluewater capable
Fuel efficiency an important consideration
Please think outside the box. If weight in extremities an issue then compromises can be made (ie chain locker in centre of boat). Tell me how unrealistic my expectations are and suggest alternatives.
Looking at your criteria are you sure a motorsailer might not be what you want. Single screw displacement hull and extended blue water in higher latitudes. Just asking?
__________________
Cadence is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 12:15   #12
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Re: Blank canvas for design

We did briefly consider a motorsailor but a big part of what we want to achieve is simplicity and ease of operation. I would rather spent the mast, spar, sail and cordage budget on something that doesn't require me to go outside in a squall to reef.
__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 12:37   #13
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Blank canvas for design

Pete,

I did some digging just to see what I could find, and frankly I came up a bust. Other than the FPB I couldn't find anything in this size with close to the 4000nm you were looking for except the FPB. even ignoring everything else, this one number just seems to break the class, assuming a custom design you could certainly keep adding tankage until it works, but that get expensive in fuel consumption.

Even the best published numbers give a max range of around 3,000nm, but that is assuming speeds of <4kn. So all of a sudden an adverse current not only kills your arrival time, but also the total fuel economy.

So if starting from scratch I would probably recommend starting on the FBP hull and drive system, then redoing the superstructure to meet the wife's demands.


The other option is to just go longer. Breaking the 65' barrier is a problem because you fall into different regulatory systems, but at least you gain more efficency. Going to 70' with the same beam would allow a higher average speed, more fuel capacity, and a more fuel efficient boat. The problem I have with many of the boats in this size range is they try to become mini-Mega Yachts and trade capability for cosmetics.

It sounds like what you want is very doable (ie there are boats doing it now), but the engineering issues involved are going to be difficult to resolve.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 12:54   #14
Registered User
 
NoTies's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Vanuatu
Boat: Whiting 29' extended "Nightcap"
Posts: 1,378
Images: 2
Re: Blank canvas for design

Thanks Greg, we know we will need to accept compromises, our list was for the "perfect" boat which we all know is a fairytale. For the range we are more than happy to plod along at 3-4 kots if that's what it takes. We were sailors for long enough to think of that as acceptable.
__________________
Pete

Positively, socially deviant.
NoTies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2014, 14:39   #15
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,058
Re: Blank canvas for design

[QUOTE=NoTies;1668664]We did briefly consider a motorsailor but a big part of what we want to achieve is simplicity and ease of operation. I would rather spent the mast, spar, sail and cordage budget on something thatdoesn't require me to go outside in a squall to reef.[/QUOTE
You wouldn't need to screw with sailing on a regular basis. Nice to have as a get home option. A motor sail slanted more to the motor not the sailing?
__________________

__________________
Cadence is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
canvas

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A blank canvas Fog Bank General Sailing Forum 14 29-11-2014 10:36
A blank canvas GILow Construction, Maintenance & Refit 0 05-05-2014 08:07
Standard Horizon CP300 I Screen Went Blank Gerry Connolly Navigation 3 23-08-2011 12:27
Fill In the Blank: Yamaha boats Are _______________ osakajoe Monohull Sailboats 5 21-08-2011 11:22



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.