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Old 08-10-2013, 16:30   #31
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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New2Cruise, As a former Yacht Broker and lonnnng time cruiser, I might offer some advise. Whatever boat you plan to buy, do a simple exercise. Sit in the main salon and ask yourself this question. Where will I put everything I need to live and cruise on this boat? You will find the answer will quickly eliminate a lot of boats you thought you might like. Many are designed to sleep 17 and dine 21, but have no storage to speak of. The older trawler styles often fit long range cruising even if you can't go fast. They are generally more economical fuel wise. Chuck
Chuck and a former Broker have you noticed what a minimum percentage down payment the banks require? Also is there a good bank that lends on older boats?
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Old 08-10-2013, 17:07   #32
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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I do like the fuel economy of a single engine but I am having a hard time with the lack of redundancy in case of a failure. I am in the aircraft business and it is a lot less forgiving if you lost an engine.

I think I will have to get over it though lol. I think fuel economy with a standby outboard is the way to go.
The single vs. twin argument is an old one and I don't think you'll ever change minds on that score but food for thought ...... My Great Grandfather ran a single cylinder, single diesel engine in a 40' wooden displacement boat between Fraserbrugh (Scotland, North Sea) and Iceland. When it broke, he fixed it and got on his way. I have a little over 20,000 hours in my log on a single engine diesels (12,000 of those in the boat in my avatar) and have broken down three times ..... fixed it and got underway.
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Old 08-10-2013, 21:09   #33
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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The single vs. twin argument is an old one and I don't think you'll ever change minds on that score but food for thought ...... My Great Grandfather ran a single cylinder, single diesel engine in a 40' wooden displacement boat between Fraserbrugh (Scotland, North Sea) and Iceland. When it broke, he fixed it and got on his way. I have a little over 20,000 hours in my log on a single engine diesels (12,000 of those in the boat in my avatar) and have broken down three times ..... fixed it and got underway.
May I ask what you would have done if you couldn't have fixed it? What were your options. I am the OP in the "Newbie" thread and was wondering the same thing about 1 or 2 engines.

BTW OP, glad you're starting young, I am 47 and am just starting to look into the same things you are.
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Old 09-10-2013, 05:29   #34
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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Chris I really appreciate all of the advice you have given.

I think I would prefer the galley on the same level as the saloon, that way my wife isn't shunned to cook when we have people on board.

I do like the fuel economy of a single engine but I am having a hard time with the lack of redundancy in case of a failure. I am in the aircraft business and it is a lot less forgiving if you lost an engine.

I think I will have to get over it though lol. I think fuel economy with a standby outboard is the way to go.

Happy to kibitz. Your comment about galley up -- and why -- is exactly a good example of how you work out what features you like best and why. That said... when you look at boats with those very features... you may find your thinking is occasionally modified by the way the feature looks "in person."

In the grand scheme of things, if you give a diesel clean fuel and enough air... and it'll start... and the cooling system works... it'll run forever. There are a few critical maintenance points (oil and filter changes, fuel filter changes, water pump impellers, etc.) that are relatively straightforward... assuming you have good access. Usually a single will allow you 360° access, and that makes all those service points easier to deal with. Even out in the middle of an ocean.

You may choose to have a dinghy, and that may be powered by an outboard... so in that case it's not like going that route would be an extra hardship. You'd need enough gas on board to have a significant impact, and many don't carry that much gas on board.

And then there's towing insurance

And in the grand scheme of things, assuming you want ti island hop the Caribbean, some of those trips are pretty short... nearest to the U.S. in the Bahamas is about a 45-mile crossing... well within range of TowBoatUS or SeaTow.

On your question about down payments, banks and marine lenders often require at least 20% down and often it's a a 20-year (max) note.

-Chris
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Old 09-10-2013, 05:37   #35
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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May I ask what you would have done if you couldn't have fixed it? What were your options. I am the OP in the "Newbie" thread and was wondering the same thing about 1 or 2 engines.

BTW OP, glad you're starting young, I am 47 and am just starting to look into the same things you are.

The radio is your friend. Call for help: If close enough simply call the tow boat, boat in a mechanic with parts, cadge a tow from a friendly passing commercial ship, etc. Or fiddle with it longer to cobble together something that gets a little progress.

The good news is that a well-maintained diesel with clean fuel seldom has a catastrophic break-down. And it's easy to carry spares that might be most commonly used.

For example, clean fuel is a big issue... so it makes sense to carry a boatload of spare fuel filters. And then some go to the lengths of "polishing" fuel in advance, so it's cleaner than when it was purchased.

Another service point is about the cooling system, usually a raw (salt) water jacket around a freshwater (antifreeze/water mixture) system... aka "heat exchanger." The raw water supply is critical, and driven by an engine mounted water pump with impeller. A boat load of spare impellers therefore makes good sense. And many carry a whole spare water pump or two.

And so forth...

But of course I pay my towing insurance right up front

But also note that most of the "recreational" powerboats that have done ocean crossings have been single engine (see Voyaging Under Power by Richard Beebe as a starter).

-Chris
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:14   #36
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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The radio is your friend. Call for help: If close enough simply call the tow boat, boat in a mechanic with parts, cadge a tow from a friendly passing commercial ship, etc. Or fiddle with it longer to cobble together something that gets a little progress.

The good news is that a well-maintained diesel with clean fuel seldom has a catastrophic break-down. And it's easy to carry spares that might be most commonly used.

For example, clean fuel is a big issue... so it makes sense to carry a boatload of spare fuel filters. And then some go to the lengths of "polishing" fuel in advance, so it's cleaner than when it was purchased.

Another service point is about the cooling system, usually a raw (salt) water jacket around a freshwater (antifreeze/water mixture) system... aka "heat exchanger." The raw water supply is critical, and driven by an engine mounted water pump with impeller. A boat load of spare impellers therefore makes good sense. And many carry a whole spare water pump or two.

And so forth...

But of course I pay my towing insurance right up front

But also note that most of the "recreational" powerboats that have done ocean crossings have been single engine (see Voyaging Under Power by Richard Beebe as a starter).

-Chris
Thanks for the info! As a newbie myself you've relieved a bit of my concerns. I don't believe I would ever do any major ocean crossings but Island hopping, yes! I would think that I wouldn't ever want to stray too far from land. At least that's how I feel now with no sailing experience. About how much is tow insurance monthly? Lot's of good info, thank you!
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:19   #37
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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About how much is tow insurance monthly? Lot's of good info, thank you!

Ummm... I don't actually know. I have two types, one as a part of my boat insurance, and one as part of my BoatUS membership, both paid annually.

If you're US-based, you can check out the BoatUS website for info on their unlimited plan. Lots of other good stuff on there too, of course. Or there's also SeaTow, and they have an unlimited plan, too.

-Chris
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Old 09-10-2013, 12:09   #38
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Ummm... I don't actually know. I have two types, one as a part of my boat insurance, and one as part of my BoatUS membership, both paid annually. If you're US-based, you can check out the BoatUS website for info on their unlimited plan. Lots of other good stuff on there too, of course. Or there's also SeaTow, and they have an unlimited plan, too. -Chris
Thanks I'll check it out.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:16   #39
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

I have a couple new questions: Why are most of the newer(80s-90s) trawlers dual engine driven? To get better fuel economy could you run a single engine and have the folding/feathering props on a boat this large or is that reserved for smaller lighter sail boats? I figure if you feather one prop and run off of one motor you could get better economy. What would be the negative points about this?
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Old 12-10-2013, 10:07   #40
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, New2Cruise.

Some references and recommended reading:

The Ideal Passagemaker?

And:
Voyaging Under Power, Beebe/Leishman (McGraw Hill)
Cruising Under Power, Burke (Putnam)
Stapleton's Power Cruising Bible, Stapleton (Hearst Marine Books)
Thank you, I just ordered these three books off of amazon.
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:02   #41
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

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I have a couple new questions: Why are most of the newer(80s-90s) trawlers dual engine driven? To get better fuel economy could you run a single engine and have the folding/feathering props on a boat this large or is that reserved for smaller lighter sail boats? I figure if you feather one prop and run off of one motor you could get better economy. What would be the negative points about this?

There were likely several reason, all having varying degrees of impact at varying times:

- new boaters, unsure of single diesel efficacy, affected the market place, wanted the second engine as a get-home
- diesel was cheap at the time (less than $1/gal)
- marketers could use twins -- especially with more horsepower than needed -- as a "new" gimmick ("fast trawlers," and so forth, touting the ability to run from weather)
- there are some real advantages to a twin installation (although there are still disadvantages, too)

Et cetera.

You can sometimes run a twin setup on one engine only; the rudders usually need to almost hard over to steer (and it may not be great for the struts) and the autopilot may or may not be able to maintain course. I say sometimes because if one engine isn't running, sometimes that gear isn't being lubed... while the prop is spinning the shaft.

As it happens, our gears do allow trolling with one engine off, for example... but the A/P can't always keep up. Steerage in anything other than perfect sea states pretty much sucks.

Haven't heard of feathering props being installed, possibly because they may not be up to the torque of a bigger diesel under normal operations (That's just my speculation). Or possibly because there's no market demand. (A more recent thought has become about electrical regeneration, using the spinning prop... haven't heard whether practical.)

-Chris
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Old 12-10-2013, 14:54   #42
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

Thanks again Chris, I figured it would be worth asking.
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Old 12-10-2013, 16:46   #43
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I guess it was more of an equivalent to mpg question, I see most of it is referred to as gallons per hour. Trying to wrap my head around the difference between the two and figure out range. The majority are diesels powered which I am a fan of, how difficult is it to find a port/marina that has diesel?
1-3 nm/gal diesel depending on vessel size and preferred cruising speed. Lower still for a gas engine. Somewhat better if you hold the speed down to 5kt.
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Old 11-11-2013, 08:59   #44
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

I can't find the boat I want with the combo of items that I think I need.

Single engine.
Swim deck.
Large bed master cabin.
Flybridge and pilot house.

Anybody have a boat that they can point me to that have these items?
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:04   #45
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Re: Basic Power Cruising Questions

New,

Welcome to the fun of boat hunting! The more you identify as necessary, the harder it is to find what you want.

I can't help you with type, but there are a lot of good questions here, good luck with your search.
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