Anchors. A little schooling, please.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Please explain how your windlass failed. What were the symptoms leading up to the failure? Did you replace the motor and gearbox with the same lewmar 3 motor or were you able to fit something stronger.

The failure was a failure of maintenance more than anything. The motor is just painted mild steel, and is subject to sea water dripping onto it. It rusted out until it lost structural integrity. It rusted out in a place where you can't really see it, so I didn't notice the process going on.

One of my winter jobs this year is to take out the replacement and repaint it, so it won't happen again.

I used the same Lewmar gearbox and motor -- don't know how you could fit anything different without huge expense of customization. The gearbox was actually OK, but you can't buy the motor without the gearbox

Looking forward to something like a Lighthouse on the next boat -- a horse of a totally different color. Lewmar make wonderful winches, but the windlasses are poor.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Lepke

Another issue to consider is how the winch is fastened to the boat. Few yachts have a winch installed to hold the breaking strength of chain. Even dividing the strain among the winch and forward cleats probably doesn't come close. I have seen and repaired decks where the winch and backing plates pulled out.
My current boat, before my time, had the winch pulled out.

The windlass is not supposed to take the breaking strength of the chain. The rode (chain or line) is supposed to be secured independently of the windlass.

Read the directions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The windlass is not supposed to take the breaking strength of the chain. The rode (chain or line) is supposed to be secured independently of the windlass.

Read the directions.

Correct, and an extremely important point.

Always belay the chain and take all the load off the windlass. The whole ground tackle system is only as strong as the weakest link. The snubber is designed to do a completely different job -- absorbing snatch loads -- and is not suitable for this function.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Correct, and an extremely important point.

Always belay the chain and take all the load off the windlass. The whole ground tackle system is only as strong as the weakest link. The snubber is designed to do a completely different job -- absorbing snatch loads -- and is not suitable for this function.

My windlass came with a sticker to that effect, supposed to be applied to the windlass after installation.

Not being a complete dumb ass, I left the sticker in the box.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rwidman

My windlass came with a sticker to that effect, supposed to be applied to the windlass after installation.

Not being a complete dumb ass, I left the sticker in the box.

Ha, ha!

Considering how many people just leave the chain on the windlass, or use nothing but a light snubber, maybe the sticker is not such a bad idea!

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Anchors, yes, but don't forget SCOPE. Even poor anchors will hold remarkably well given enough scope.

I grew dissatisfied last year with a 75# original CQR.

BUT, I used to pay 30M (100') of 3/8" chain
This year, with 130' out (40m, or 85kg of iron) NO problem


I tested it swinging on hook with a Genoa up, in either 180° or full turns

Of course, I will buy a Manson some day (hard to find in Europe)

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My Dad used to always tell me -- chain doesn't do anything sitting in the locker . . . .

There are a few reasons NOT to put out more than you need -- more time to retrieve, more wear and tear on the windlass, etc. Also, if you're in an anchorage with other boats, you don't want to have much more or much less scope out than other boats, so that you swing harmoniously.

But I often just put it all out anyway, if I'm not constrained in some way.

I have 100 meters (320 feet) of 1/2" chain, and don't use a snubber, so more chain on top of better security, means more comfort.

I carry about 250’ of 3/8” chain on our main rode. I’ve only laid it all out a few times when preparing for a storm, but I routinely lay out 7:1 or more when I can. Over the last season this means we almost always get to around 120’, commonly around 180’, and occasionally over 200’.

I’m most often constrained by geography, not by other boats, but earlier in this season we certainly dealt with busy anchorages (1000 Islands and upper St. Lawrence). When contained I obviously lay out less, including sometimes sitting on less than 5:1 — something I try hard to avoid, including choosing not to anchor in those dubious locations.

I’m with your Dad on this one: chain does no good in the chain locker. I sleep well knowing we’re got lots of scope and good snubbers (always).

BTW, we have a manual windlass. It has never been a problem hauling up our rode. And I don’t think it could ever be destroyed due to strain. If things got to that I’d know before it caused damage.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Correct, and an extremely important point.

Always belay the chain and take all the load off the windlass. The whole ground tackle system is only as strong as the weakest link. The snubber is designed to do a completely different job -- absorbing snatch loads -- and is not suitable for this function.

Dockhead - yo've got me a little confused here.

we lay out our chain, then set a 15 foot double sided Mantus 1 inch bridle as a snubber. We then let out say 6-7 meters of chain, meaning the anchor is now riding on the snubber and not placing any strain on teh indlass at all. Even if the snubber stretches to its fullest extent - there will still be something like 4 meters of loose chain.

There is no way any strain can be put on the windlass.

But you're saying we should anchor the chain differently?

Please explain what will work better than our set-up?

thanks

carsten

[Dockhead]

Yes - snubber is nylon, right? It's designed to stretch and absorb energy. Its RATED strength, if it's properly sized, is already less than the chain, and practical strength of a snubber, nylon, wet, working, and chafing (nylon is far more vulnerable to chafe than other rope), is going to be much less still. Make off your chain with something as strong as the chain - stout strop or stout chain lock - and leave your snubber to do just that job which it does well.

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

But it's not just about holding power. It's also about quickly setting in different substrates, not fouling on clamshells or small rocks, and remaining set (or quickly resetting) when the current and wind direction changes. Do the HHP and SHHP classifications address these factors?

No, apparently not. They do address manufacturing quality standards and strength but not much else. Agreed the quick-setting and resetting/remaining set capabilities of the 3rd-Gen anchors is their greatest asset. I'll just call them 3rd-Gen for now (if only because the Mantus doesn't meet classification).

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

No, apparently not. They do address manufacturing quality standards and strength but not much else. Agreed the quick-setting and resetting/remaining set capabilities of the 3rd-Gen anchors is their greatest asset. I'll just call them 3rd-Gen for now (if only because the Mantus doesn't meet classification).

Hmm. Can you point me to documents where Mantus failed to meet any classifications?

I did not think that Mantus applied for a classification. Which is not the same thing as failing to meet the classification.

N.B. I sell Mantus anchors

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by evm1024

Hmm. Can you point me to documents where Mantus failed to meet any classifications?

I did not think that Mantus applied for a classification. Which is not the same thing as failing to meet the classification.

N.B. I sell Mantus anchors

Good point. Other manufacturers have separately pointed out Mantus does not have SHHP status and my understanding is that it is not built robust enough to meet the standards. That said, Mantus is my first choice for storm anchor, regardless, so don't stop selling them.

[evm1024]

No competition between anchor makers.....

Anchor certifications are for Ships anchors and really do not scale down to recreational sizes very well. So getting a cert for a specific anchor is likely done on a larger anchor (greater than 55 lbs) and it a type cert. The implication is that if any size anchor is certified then all the anchor sized in that type are certified. Not true really.

The cost of certification is significant. There is a lot involved. In terms of just holding power we have a number of anchor tests (statistics, lies, anchor tests) that indicate that Mantus anchors do have greater straight line holding than some of the SHHP certified anchors.

Here is one: Top Anchors Tested | Boating Magazine

Or even the muddy bottom of Chesapeake Bay tests:

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/asse...nchor-test.pdf
Anchor Throw-Down: Fortress Anchor Tests 11 Popular Hooks - boats.com

Oops: looks like all 3 are from the soft mud tests.

[NevisDog]

It may not have been mentioned yet on this thread but the very best independent tests IMO are those done by Steve aboard Panope, right here on CF - just search 'videos of anchor setting' or similar. Any of the boating magazine tests will give comparative holding power (useful) but Panope's videos compare ability to reset, which for most is the real reason to select a 3rd-Gen anchor.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

It may not have been mentioned yet on this thread but the very best independent tests IMO are those done by Steve aboard Panope, right here on CF - just search 'videos of anchor setting' or similar. Any of the boating magazine tests will give comparative holding power (useful) but Panope's videos compare ability to reset, which for most is the real reason to select a 3rd-Gen anchor.

Steve is a friend of mine, and I do recommend his excellent anchor-test videos, but we should recognize that he is testing in one type of bottom: sandy mud, with scattered weeds. This is generally what we get up here in the PNW, but other areas have different bottoms, and this may make a difference in setting and holding characteristics.

Steve's videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59f-OjWoq0&t=4s