Alternative Fuels

[dacust]

Originally Posted by dacust

I think I'll do some research on soybean oil. Sounds interesting. Hopefully they were more diligent in their research than they were in writing their paper. Sloppy to say the least.

Thanks for posting it.

Correction. That paper is not nearly as bad as I thought. In looking back over it, it suddenly dawned on me that it was converted from a typewritten report to .pdf by OCR software. What appeared to be sloppy writing is actually errors in character recognition (you can see places where some characters were not recognized and are displayed graphically instead of as characters). "Over-the-road" was intrepreted as "Over-the-mad". A typewriten "ro" could be intrepreted as an "m". The same for some of the math conversions being off.

But there are still a couple of places where I see logic errors.

All-in-all, I have much better confidence in it than I did.

Regardless, it is something I intend to look into.

[Den]

imes "real"

Originally Posted by dacust

I think I'll do some research on soybean oil. Sounds interesting. Hopefully they were more diligent in their research than they were in writing their paper. Sloppy to say the least.

Thanks for posting it.

Unfortunately, but sometimes "real" info can be tricky to find.

I recently saw supposedly a fellow in a newer Mercedes diesel using straight soy oil but the article was very vague on whether he was using it that way or modifying it or making biodiesel from it.

I was very curious about this but couldn't get any more info on this particular individual.

[dacust]

Originally Posted by Den

imes "real"

Unfortunately, but sometimes "real" info can be tricky to find.

I recently saw supposedly a fellow in a newer Mercedes diesel using straight soy oil but the article was very vague on whether he was using it that way or modifying it or making biodiesel from it.

I was very curious about this but couldn't get any more info on this particular individual.

Seems like converting to bio-diesel would be the way to go. Wouldn't need a fuel tank heater that way. No separate diesel tank for starting. Getting soy bean oil would be easier than hunting around to arrange and pick up used fry oil. I think I'll look at that. I have a buddy that has been collecting the equipment for a bio-diesel plant.

While I go looking, do you have any links on that? That is, is there any difference in converting virgin soybean oil than used fry oil? Seems like there could be advantages as the exact makeup of the oil would be known. No primary filtering, at the least. Do you still have to upgrade the fuel lines to use bio-diesel? Lots of questions.

[dacust]

Originally Posted by easterly

The last time I checked virgin bulk soybean oil was $0.55 a gallon US.

Hmmm. When did you check last?

According to this Biodiesel Blog: Biodiesel Price Increases

(Emphasis is mine)

"2008/04/19
...

• virgin soybean oil's price has tripled in the past year
• lots of biodiesel plants have ceased production until prices fall

...
Over the past year we have seen the price of soybean oil triple. Two weeks ago, it reached a high of $0.70 per lb, or $5.25 per gallon to the producer."

All of a sudden it doesn't sound so attractive.

EDIT: Another reference:

New fuels start to gain traction

Sunday, May 25, 2008

"About a year ago, Rieber paid 40 cents a pound, plus 6 cents for delivery. Last Wednesday, the soybean oil price was 63.5 cents a pound, plus delivery. “That works out to $5.26 per gallon delivered,” he said."

[sandy daugherty]

I took a drive down the alley of a restaurant row near DC. All the Waste Oil receptacles were padlocked, with warning signs. Kiss off free fuel.

[dacust]

Originally Posted by easterly

The last time I checked virgin bulk soybean oil was $0.55 a gallon US. One hell of a savings over $4.39 for diesel. Even if you mixed it 50/50 you would only be at $2.50 a gallon. The other option is buring used transmission fluid. It works fine in the summer.

Sorry for these multiple postings, but things just occur to me...

easterly, I think I see where your $0.55 per gallon comes from. A year ago it was about $0.40 per lb, now about $0.70 per lb. I bet the price you saw was $0.55 per lb, not gallon.

[GordMay]

I bet dacust was right.

According to the Chicago Board of Trade, it appears that Soy Bean oil is selling for about 62.65 Cents per Pound; whereas at the beginning of 2007 it was under 30 cents a pound.
CBOT - Soybean Oil Quotes Open Auction
Prices are quoted per pound: CBOT - Soybean Oil Quotes Open Auction

Producers need about 7.5 pounds of soy oil, to make one gallon of biodiesel (about $4.88/Gal for feedstock) - or slightly higher than the retail price of Diesel fuel.

Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Update (from the US DOE, Energy Information Administration)
Gasoline and Diesel Fuel Update

[Den]

Originally Posted by dacust

Seems like converting to bio-diesel would be the way to go. Wouldn't need a fuel tank heater that way. No separate diesel tank for starting. Getting soy bean oil would be easier than hunting around to arrange and pick up used fry oil. I think I'll look at that. I have a buddy that has been collecting the equipment for a bio-diesel plant.

While I go looking, do you have any links on that? That is, is there any difference in converting virgin soybean oil than used fry oil? Seems like there could be advantages as the exact makeup of the oil would be known. No primary filtering, at the least. Do you still have to upgrade the fuel lines to use bio-diesel? Lots of questions.

Upgrading fuel lines depends on the application. With vehicles I THINK it's about 1996 that they started using higher pressure fuel lines (?) .

You WILL find after first using bio your fuel filters will clog a lot faster the first time or 3 as it cleans all the "gunk" out of your fuel system. After that, it's fine.

The best place for info on the bio plant and bio in general is probably the infopop forum I mentioned. there is info on "bought" set ups as well as building your own using a hot water heater etc and pros and cons of various set ups.


There are discussions on "washing" it and also posts about what to do with the by products (glycerine) such as making cleaners, soaps and even shampoos. The main thing with this is to make sure any Methanol is out if it's going to contact skin!

The Infopop forum also has diesels listed in individual applications (vehicular) and how each manufacturer responds to it.

The VW TDI forum also has a biodiesel section and some of the "major players" at Infopop are also regulars there.

If you can find it locally, you can also find ads in the Mother Earth News for manufacturers of bio plants but I'd suggest if you consider any of these to join Infopop and get an opinion on the unit you consider as there is a LOT of "snake oil salesmen" out there and also the media, even the "environmental" media is not the best versed in their facts and info.

I was once originally looking at Veggie oil myself but after reading and studying it long enough found it too much of a hassle to be worth it. Plus, as I mentioned there are MANY legal ramifications involved. Some people may just "pull up to a restaurant" and fill up but it isn't considered ethical to actually do so in many cases and areas.

And no matter which direction you go, effort will be required. It takes work to get the results but myself I feel they are well worth it as i believe as a society we've become too dependent PERIOD! Myself included. Not just oil but the very infrastructure of how we live but that's a whole different subject.

[easterly]

I just checked, WOW it has gone up it is now $995 per metric ton. At 7.6776 lbs per gallon that makes it $3.47 per gallon, bulk degummed soybean oil is still cheaper than diesel. You have to buy it by the rail car or tanker truck full.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by easterly

The last time I checked virgin bulk soybean oil was $0.55 a gallon US. One hell of a savings over $4.39 for diesel. Even if you mixed it 50/50 you would only be at $2.50 a gallon. The other option is buring used transmission fluid. It works fine in the summer.

Let us know.
From what I read in the past one cannot just mix veg and diesel 50/50 and have it work.
If you make the veg oil into biodiesel then it costs a couple of bucks a gallon to make, along with all the labor and risks mentioned above.

Not to say the approach is not doable, but like sailing, there is a lot of logistics to take into account.

[Den]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Let us know.
From what I read in the past one cannot just mix veg and diesel 50/50 and have it work.
If you make the veg oil into biodiesel then it costs a couple of bucks a gallon to make, along with all the labor and risks mentioned above.

Not to say the approach is not doable, but like sailing, there is a lot of logistics to take into account.

Exactly.

To do it properly and safely, you need a 'place' to do it. Even on the INFOPOP forum a few years ago a member burned his house down! Admittedly he had an accident but one thing they stress is proper safety.

I know myself I already figured a processor would be about $6000 realistically. There are many home made setups but I would feel safer with a proven design especially with having it in a residential area! (Garage)

Unless you have somewhere for something like these:
Biodiesel Processors

It may not be a possibility.

I'm not saying veggie oil (SVO/WVO) is "out" but after my own research felt it wasn't worth the hassle/risk/etc.

[Inthewind]

I am a person who really does burn veggie oil in my power boat that is pictured here. I have done a conversion that heats the oil up using engine coolant. The heat brings the viscosity down similar to diesel fuel. Copper fuel line actually is plumbed into the heater hose. Four valves are required to switch the system over to veggie oil and back to diesel. I would not recommend burning straight veggie oil cold in cold climates. I start on diesel, let everything warm up and than switch to veggie oil for best results. If I forget to switch back to diesel and let the system get cold,then the engine does not want to start right up like it does normally,it takes more cranking,but it does start up. The engine is a Yanmar 4LHDTE 170 hp. The conversion consisted of a seperate tank for oil only,copper tubing.valves.heather hose,I use two filters. one of them heated with copper wrapped around it, wire, lots of hose clamps,brass fittings,switches and a few other things I might have missed. Expect to pay five hundred dollars just for parts not including installation unless you do it yourself. I get my oil from barrier island restaurants around here and I need my boat to get it as thier are no bridges to these isands. My diesel work van and my volkswagon are also converted over. I am not going to convert my new Yanmar in my Morgan OI because I won't have acces to oil in the Bahamas and South America. It's paid off extremely well for me. Do your research and make sure you can obtain oil in your area. I have noticed that oil is becoming harder to get because it is catching on because of fuel prices. You can still get plenty, but do you have time to find ir and get it and filter it? I have around 250 gallons of filtered clean oil and I am always stock piling it. It's not really free when you concider the time involved, to me time is money. Good Luck.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Den

Exactly.

To do it properly and safely, you need a 'place' to do it.

I'm not saying veggie oil (SVO/WVO) is "out" but after my own research felt it wasn't worth the hassle/risk/etc.

And when it is done there is a waste product that is considered toxic and may be difficult/expensive to dispose of.

Straight veg is easier if one has access and installs all the heating stuff to switch over with.

[Den]

Also, though again, it's automotive, you can read about how David Moders and his family drove from California to South America in a Veggie oil car here:
Veggie Oil Trip from Oakland to Argentina! - Topic Powered by eve community

[Alan Wheeler]

From what I read in the past one cannot just mix veg and diesel 50/50 and have it work.

You can and it does. But for how long I am not sure either. In fact I have seen a guy run a Diesel on pure vege oil. Not processed. In fact it still had a whole lot of chip crap in it. I think it would end up being rather hard on filters, but he was showing it could be done, not long term driving.
I have seen a few comments about the vege oil not lubricating. Actually vege oil is a better lubricant than Diesel is. I can't comment on soy, I don't know.
One issue with processed vege oil can be the methanol used to process it. If the Methanol is not scrubbed out properly, it will cause issues with rubber fuel hoses etc. Glycerol is the major by product and Sodium Hydroxide is the toxic material left over.