Advice Needed: Cruiser Yacht with Outboards

[ranger58sb]

Bish, I think unless I was able to consult the original naval architect, I'd be leery of the conversion to outboards. Was the original straight shaft inboards? Or outdrives? How much did all that weigh, closer to midships, in comparison to the outboards further aft?
Could be OK (safe)... or not (safe)... and finding out "not" after the fact wouldn't be great.

Cruiser's is still in business; maybe ask them?

Otherwise, I think it'd be a safer bet to start with a purpose-built outboard boat... given those are what's common in your area.

-Chris

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by bishbash89

How would you test this? I assume you can brace/support the transom in ways in which to support the engine load?

Yes, your transom can be reinforced if need be. Seems as though you have a wealth of information right where you’re at with those commercial fishermen. I really don’t think you’re going to have any problems if you use your powers of observation to begin with. A trial run is going to tell you a lot. By the way, I wouldn’t be surprised if you saw less stern weight to begin with. You are eliminating two inboard engines and transmissions plus all of the accompanying hardware.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Using the cruiser the same as you? No idea - how do you use yours? "

I don't think A64 meant "cruiser" as in "boat". He meant "the word cruiser". And I agree. Most of us here, Bish, are "rag wavers" and don't have a lot of experience with "stink pots". We move at 5 or 6 knots. You'll be moving at five and thirty knots or more, and that is a kettle of fish of a different colour!

A SAR man took me "around the bay" in the "rigid inflatable" SAR boat at over forty knots. Lemme tell you: The puddle I was standing in was NOT seawater :-)! Since, as you say, you are new to this game, best that you get a few miles behind you in OTHER people's overpowered stink pots before you go to sea in your own.

Now, we happen to have a companion forum enjoyed by people from "the dark side". Here is a link to it:

Trawler Forum

You may find that you'll get better and more reliable answers there than you can from those of us who enjoy the luvverly quiet AFTER we shut down our mighty 20HP power plants ;-)

Whichever way you go, may you have good luck and calm seas :-)

TrentePieds

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by bishbash89

Guys,

Apologies in advance if I'm not using the correct terminology - I'm completely new to the world of boating. I'm planning to purchase a new boat soon, and I've found a Cruiser Yacht 280 cxi (2007 model) that's had a conversion from inboard engines to outboard engines done - 2 x 200 Yamaha 2017 engines (20 hours running). I love the boat, it's well maintained and I'm getting the local Yamaha team to inspect the engines.*

One concern was raised by a friend is that due to the change in weight/centre of gravity shift, the boat may not run as well on the water and may experience "bouncing" - is this common for boats converted to outboards?*

I'd like anyone with experience of this kind of conversion to give me some advice as to what kind of problems I should look out for (detailed explanation would be useful - I have no practical experience), what issues I may face and whether there will be any impact on handling, performance, efficiency, etc.?

I'm planning to go for a drive/sail/cruise (not sure of the correct term here) on Thursday, so any advice you could give me before then would be greatly appreciated.

Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks,

​​​​​​​Bish

That model has a fully balsa cored hull. I have surveyed 50 Cruisers Yachts and all but three had significant balsa decay. Any structural modifications to support the loads of those outboards had better be immense and that balsa core had better be perfect.

Take a look at http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Balsa...0rot%20wet.htm

[Hardhead]

That seems like a pretty big bite to chew, financially and technically, so to speak. I'd strongly go for something a bit smaller and simpler to start out. In my opinion, seamanship and boat handling is a lot easier and QUICKER to learn when you are the captain of a small vessel - like 25 feet or less. Wind, waves, current and power effect a small boat much for distinctly and cleanly, and that is really invaluable to really understand what is going on with the boat from a seamanship perspective. Once you get a good feel for that, anything bigger is much easier to become proficient with. Good luck, and good success.

[Dooglas]

It appears that the Cruiser 280 was usually equipped with a pair of 4.3 liter V-6 outdrives. Not really clear to me why you wouldn't just replace them if that is what was needed. A pair of 200 hp Yamaha outboards cost significantly more than the replacement engines and outdrives. And that is not to mention the cost of reinforcing/rebuilding the transom of the boat to accommodate the OBs, or the question of whether it was done correctly from an engineering standpoint. If I were truly interested in this boat, I would want to know who did the conversion and just what their qualifications were for this kind of work.

[bishbash89]

Originally Posted by coastalexplorer

You have written not intending to take the boat out in rough seas....Only used in shallows 3 to 8 meters?



I see a contradiction here! As waves roll around the world, The water gets more rough and violent as the distance from the surface to the bottom decreases causing less recovery time between waves in shallow water,

Ok, but realistically, how far into the shallows are we talking before that wave gets dispersed. I have coral reef and sand bank barriers which help to disperse/break the waves over a long stretch. So let's be realistic - I'm not going to be heading out in the middle of the storm and realistically I'd be back within cover of a marina in less than 30-40minutes at most if an emergency struck. The sheer number of pleasure, fishing and commercial boats within the area gives me additional security should I need support. Plus, all of the areas I will be cruising are close to shallows that I can literally walk in at high tide...

I understand everyone has an opinion and wants to give some input, but let's not be drama queens - I'm more likely to get injured in my car tomorrow than my boat. Lets all assume that I understand that the sea is dangerous - what isn't? I own a perfectly generous pair of balls, therefore I'm open to the risk.

What I truly need is an opinion or some advise related to my original question - preferably from someone with inboard to outboard conversion experience?

[bishbash89]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

It appears that the Cruiser 280 was usually equipped with a pair of 4.3 liter V-6 outdrives. Not really clear to me why you wouldn't just replace them if that is what was needed. A pair of 200 hp Yamaha outboards cost significantly more than the replacement engines and outdrives. And that is not to mention the cost of reinforcing/rebuilding the transom of the boat to accommodate the OBs, or the question of whether it was done correctly from an engineering standpoint. If I were truly interested in this boat, I would want to know who did the conversion and just what their qualifications were for this kind of work.

Hi, I believe the outboards were used because of the popularity of those here, the fact that servicing and maintenance is easier vs inboard (especially here in the middle east). I assume the majority of you guys are in the states in which case you have access to a lot more parts, dealers and skilled labour than I do.

As I understand it, but I need to confirm, the Yamaha dealership fitted the engines so I assume they would know how to secure it and ensure that it could support the load. I will check this and see what support/mods they have done to support the additional weight on the transom.

Thanks for this though- food for thought.

[bishbash89]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

That seems like a pretty big bite to chew, financially and technically, so to speak. I'd strongly go for something a bit smaller and simpler to start out. In my opinion, seamanship and boat handling is a lot easier and QUICKER to learn when you are the captain of a small vessel - like 25 feet or less. Wind, waves, current and power effect a small boat much for distinctly and cleanly, and that is really invaluable to really understand what is going on with the boat from a seamanship perspective. Once you get a good feel for that, anything bigger is much easier to become proficient with. Good luck, and good success.

Theres an offset between the two - smaller may be easier to manage at first but I believe I will quickly outgrow this. I'm sure many on here didnt stick with their original boat and got that itch to go bigger and better. I know I would have that, so I've gone with something that suits my needs and gives me a bit of a challenge. 30ft isn't huge, its manageable and it'll be a steep learning curve for me, but honestly, the financial aspect of buying a smaller boat to then upgrade shortly after just doesn't make financial sense, nor does it suit my needs/wants for having a boat in the first place.... I plan on keeping whatever boat I buy for a long time. Hope that makes sense. But I appreciate the concern and I will take all available tutelage in seamanship and related topics.

[bishbash89]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "Using the cruiser the same as you? No idea - how do you use yours? "

I don't think A64 meant "cruiser" as in "boat". He meant "the word cruiser". And I agree. Most of us here, Bish, are "rag wavers" and don't have a lot of experience with "stink pots". We move at 5 or 6 knots. You'll be moving at five and thirty knots or more, and that is a kettle of fish of a different colour!

A SAR man took me "around the bay" in the "rigid inflatable" SAR boat at over forty knots. Lemme tell you: The puddle I was standing in was NOT seawater :-)! Since, as you say, you are new to this game, best that you get a few miles behind you in OTHER people's overpowered stink pots before you go to sea in your own.

Now, we happen to have a companion forum enjoyed by people from "the dark side". Here is a link to it:

Trawler Forum

You may find that you'll get better and more reliable answers there than you can from those of us who enjoy the luvverly quiet AFTER we shut down our mighty 20HP power plants ;-)

Whichever way you go, may you have good luck and calm seas :-)

TrentePieds

Haha I can believe it. Those inflatables do not look like fun when they go that fast.

Ok so I'll take a peek at that forum and see if I have anymore luck - I may be back to your side one day.

I will close this post, but to everyone that commented, thank you for the input and support. Much appreciated.

Bish

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by bishbash89

Hi, I believe the outboards were used because of the popularity of those here, the fact that servicing and maintenance is easier vs inboard (especially here in the middle east). I assume the majority of you guys are in the states in which case you have access to a lot more parts, dealers and skilled labour than I do.

As I understand it, but I need to confirm, the Yamaha dealership fitted the engines so I assume they would know how to secure it and ensure that it could support the load. I will check this and see what support/mods they have done to support the additional weight on the transom.

Thanks for this though- food for thought.

bish, I think most of us "get" where you are, the limitations of the market there, and your understanding of safety. That's all good.

Here's some more food for ya: While "...the Yamaha dealership fitted the engines..." that should be the PERFECT reason for more concern, NOT less. Why? Because your following assumption may very well be completely off the mark because the Yamaha dealership is in business to do what? Sell outboard engines. That's pretty much ALL their business is for.

They MAY BE completely competent to diagnose the application to which their engines are applied. And, also, to your boat in particular.

But that MAY WELL be UNTRUE also. Maybe they don't know about the balsa construction. Do they?

And if it is, the structural integrity of the transom is, and remains, of utmost importance.

I recommend doing more investigation on this and other boating forums and Mr. Google, too, to learn about CY outboard conversions and transom strength before you plunk your $$ down.

Please understand that many of us "ragheads" have had smaller sailboats that had outboard motors on brackets on our transoms. In many cases, all too many, foolish sailors decided they'd go faster by putting much larger outboards on their boats. The end result, usually predictably, were broken brackets and squished transoms.

And sailboats are displacement hulls, so there's only so much HP you can apply and they simply will NOT go any faster. Of course, it's different for semi displacement or planing motorboats.

As far as balance is concerned, filling a water tank is not a good idea, 'cuz you'd just be adding weight, the last thing you want to do on any boat. Plus, if the old engines were far aft, rather than centered, you'd just be making the trim worse, not better. It's a balance thing, like schoolyard teeter-totters.

Good luck.

[Hardhead]

One thing you do want to check out extremely closely is the quality of the outboard attachments. The huge issue with any balsa cored boat is that water can easily seep into the balsa core through bolt holes, and other modifications. If it does, it rots the balsa, and if that happens the whole fiberglass composite becomes very weak. None of this is easily ascertained by just eye-balling it. If it gets weak anywhere near where thousands of pounds of outboard thrust, torque and weight are attached - that could be very bad at some sudden point or another. Be careful about water seeping in under hydraulic pressure wherever the outboards are attached, or the boat has been modified. Buying anything non-standard and high dollar is a bigger gamble than off the shelf, but it sounds like that's pretty much the whole market for this sized boat where you are. Also sounds like this sort of modification is done all the time - so it's either take it or leave it for the most part. Good luck-

[captlloyd]

Originally Posted by bishbash89

Haha I can believe it. Those inflatables do not look like fun when they go that fast.

Ok so I'll take a peek at that forum and see if I have anymore luck - I may be back to your side one day.

I will close this post, but to everyone that commented, thank you for the input and support. Much appreciated.

Bish

Bish you got so much bad advice here it’s amazing. No, mounting those size engines on that size boat is not going to create Miss Bardall !! Also you sound like an intelligent chap and I am guessing you will do all of the required learning when you buy that boat. Good luck.

[Dooglas]

Originally Posted by bishbash89

As I understand it, but I need to confirm, the Yamaha dealership fitted the engines so I assume they would know how to secure it and ensure that it could support the load. I will check this and see what support/mods they have done to support the additional weight on the transom.

Fitting two large outboards to a 30' inboard hull is a bit more complicated than that. The transom of the boat, as built, was not capable of mounting those outboards and the swimstep would not be nearly strong enough. Someone would have had to fit custom outboard wells to do the job. If you think the same shop who installed the OBs also did the conversion, have a talk with them about what they did and about other similar conversions they have done.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Dooglas

Fitting two large outboards to a 30' inboard hull is a bit more complicated than that. The transom of the boat, as built, was not capable of mounting those outboards and the swimstep would not be nearly strong enough. Someone would have had to fit custom outboard wells to do the job. If you think the same shop who installed the OBs also did the conversion, have a talk with them about what they did and about other similar conversions they have done.

The transom is only part of the structure requiring reinforcement. A strong transom with two large outboards becomes a huge lever on the hull. The fact that these Cruisers hulls have a history of decaying balsa core is worrying. It is no simple thing to reinforce the balsa bottom forward of the transom wheterh is is sound or wet.

I believe this brand in particular is a poor choice for this mod. A solid glass reinforced bottom has a much better chance of sucess.