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Old 19-05-2016, 13:18   #1
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A couple more questions

You've all been very generous with suggestions and they have been greatly appreciated.

We are strongly leaning toward something along the lines of this:
Used 2005 Cruisers 405, Sarasota, Fl - 34236 - BoatTrader.com
We're fond of the single level, open design for the salon, galley, and dining plus there seems to be a lot packed into a 40' boat. So far, we have found very few negative comments about the Cruisers 405 line.
  • If we decide to go through with the purchase of a boat, what kind of recurring expenses can we expect?
    • We're (uninformed) speculating that an annual haul out and bottom paint will be needed and will run about $2000 for a boat this size. Does it need to be done annually if the hull is brushed and scraped regularly? (we both scuba dive so can do this ourselves)
    • Oil changes every... 100 hours?
    • Oil filter changes every... how often?
    • What's the normal cost for an oil change and filter change?
    • We intend to set up an automatic deposit savings account to set aside money for an eventual engine overhaul or something
    • What other expenses should we plan for?
  • Many of the marinas seem to specify no living aboard. Let's assume we find a reasonably priced slip in a non-live aboard marina. If we go down to the boat for the weekend once or twice a month and stay on board while there, is that considered normal and acceptable or would it violate the "no living aboard" clause?

Thanks for any information you can give us.
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Old 19-05-2016, 18:31   #2
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Re: A couple more questions

Sorry can not add anything as far as answers to your questions. Just want to say that is a very nice boat. If you plan to cruise the diesel is the way to go.

I think you should call the marinas and ask them directly if you can spend a night's on you boat every so often.

Diesel engines are usually tough engines and do not to be babied. Oil and filter changes are usually about all they need.





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Old 20-05-2016, 05:50   #3
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Re: A couple more questions

There are a couple 42' Cruisers boats in our marina, older than the 405s, I think. The owners seem comfortable with 'em...

The only thing I've pondered about theirs is that they both have V-drives. Hta allows the engines to be set further aft -- which in turn frees up some interior space. OTOH, it makes service a bit more difficult, because access is reduced. V-drives have a decent enough reputation for reliability, though, so I mention this only for your thoughts about doing your own maintenance.

Additional comments below.

-Chris


Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEasley View Post
We are strongly leaning toward something along the lines of this:
Used 2005 Cruisers 405, Sarasota, Fl - 34236 - BoatTrader.com
We're fond of the single level, open design for the salon, galley, and dining plus there seems to be a lot packed into a 40' boat. So far, we have found very few negative comments about the Cruisers 405 line.

If we decide to go through with the purchase of a boat, what kind of recurring expenses can we expect?
  • We're (uninformed) speculating that an annual haul out and bottom paint will be needed and will run about $2000 for a boat this size. Does it need to be done annually if the hull is brushed and scraped regularly? (we both scuba dive so can do this ourselves)
Its usually a good idea to haul annually so you can inspect the underwater hardware, replace zinc anodes, paint as necessary. Some of that can be done in the water, and in FL you'd probably want the bottom brushed more often than we have to do it up here anyway... so diving can be useful. Often "paint as necessary" can mean touch up in some areas... and then maybe every 2, 3, or 4 years you might have to do the whole bottom. Latter depends on your paint, environment, etc.
  • Oil changes every... 100 hours?
Your engine manufacturer will have published guidelines on that. Ours happens to say every 100 hours or every year, whichever comes first. Usually transmission (gear) oil changes are similar.
  • Oil filter changes every... how often?
With every oil change.
  • What's the normal cost for an oil change and filter change?
Varies by engine. Our engines happen to take 17 quarts of oil (each), and the oil filters are about $83 each. Gears take 4 quarts each, and the magnetic filter is clean-able so there's no extra expense there.
  • How often does a generator need service and is it easy for a fairly mechanically-inclined person to himself or should a mechanic service it?
In FL you'll maybe find you use the genset more often than the engines... if you spend much time away from the dock. The generator manufacturer (and the engine manufacturer) will have published guidelines, and they're usually similar to guidelines for the mains. We do our generator service every time -- and at the same time -- we do main engine service.
  • We intend to set up an automatic deposit savings account to set aside money for an eventual engine overhaul or something
  • What other expenses should we plan for?
Systems wear out with use... and some say even faster with non-use. Freshwater pumps, macerator pumps, faucet cartridges, fridges, etc etc etc occasionally need replacing.

BTW, there's more to engine service: water pump">raw water pump impellers need changing (frequency dictated by engine/pump manufacturer), and fuel filters (usually an off-engine primary fuel-water separator and a secondary on-engine unit) need periodic service too. Primary service is often just draining water and/or sediment, but occasionally the elements need changing too. Secondary service is often like an auto engine, spin off the old, spin on the new.
  • Many of the marinas seem to specify no living aboard. Let's assume we find a reasonably priced slip in a non-live aboard marina. If we go down to the boat for the weekend once or twice a month and stay on board while there, is that considered normal and acceptable or would it violate the "no living aboard" clause?
More often, "liveaboard" means really, no kidding, all the time, no dirt home to retreat to. Most marinas, even those with a "no liveaboard" policy, fully expect people to stay on their boats from time to time. Check that, of course, with your target marinas.
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Old 20-05-2016, 07:12   #4
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Re: A couple more questions

Thanks, ranger. Really good information. That helps a lot.
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Old 20-05-2016, 08:02   #5
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Re: A couple more questions

Boat like that, oil changes are a very small piece of cost of ownership, almost insignificant.
Find out what the fuel consumption is at cruise.
Do you plan on using the boat, or leave it in a Marina?
I'm not trying to be cute with that question, but this is the kind of boat that if you have to ask what it costs, you can't afford to use it.
Engines have on average 35 hours of use per year, but in reality most likely the first year they were used at least 100 hours or more meaning that it was actually taken out very rarely, and that is not uncommon for a boat of this size, boats like this often get used very little due to their cost per hour to operate.
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Old 20-05-2016, 10:16   #6
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Re: A couple more questions

No liveaboards usually means its ok to spend weekends aboard but not full time for months on end. Just ask them. Some marinas do allow liveaboards but they tend also to be very expensive or real dumps. Be aware that in states like Florida, you become a resident by living on your boat and are subject to fun things like property taxes, assorted boat fees, and the like.
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Old 20-05-2016, 10:20   #7
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Re: A couple more questions

What does "liveaboard" mean?

We have found on the West Coast that it is defined (differently but explicitly) by each area or marina. In our marina it is someone who sleeps on their boat more than 15 nights in a 30 day period. Just ask them, I promise you're not the first. In many marinas where there are high seasons and low, people will technically be liveaboards for the high season and then leave their boat and they are not. These people don't have liveaboard status, they are there at the discretion of the harbor master.

If you dress neatly, are polite, and keep a fairly low profile I have found that the "discretion of the harbor master" will cover you. They want customers like that. I think that will be true on the East Coast as well.

Looks like a nice boat - good luck.
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Old 20-05-2016, 10:32   #8
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Re: A couple more questions

Liveaboard is often considered staying over half the month on the boat. If you are a vessel in transit you can often stay longer.


"We're (uninformed) speculating that an annual haul out and bottom paint will be needed and will run about $2000 for a boat this size. Does it need to be done annually if the hull is brushed and scraped regularly? (we both scuba dive so can do this ourselves) It depends on where you live and how aggressive the growth is. But you can often go 2 years. Many places the bottom paint only retards growth anyway, doesn't stop it entirely.
  • Oil changes every... 100 hours? It varies, but 100 hours is good.
  • Oil filter changes every... how often? Same time
  • What's the normal cost for an oil change and filter change? Do it yourself. If you have it done it will be real expensive. They make devices that just suck the oil out the dipstick and hold the oil until you dispose of it. Cheap and easy. Other options too. I have never paid to have it done but wouldn't be surprised if it costs $200 or so.
  • How often does a generator need service and is it easy for a fairly mechanically-inclined person to himself or should a mechanic service it? Generally same as your main engine.
  • We intend to set up an automatic deposit savings account to set aside money for an eventual engine overhaul or something
  • What other expenses should we plan for?,
  • Sails every 10 years, SS rigging every 15 years, batteries every 5-7 years, lines etc every 5 years, moorage, insurance. Electronics every 5 years maybe, propane for cooking. On a used boat I would have the fuel tanks cleaned and fuel "polished". Things come up, you need to learn to maintain them yourself.
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Old 20-05-2016, 10:44   #9
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Re: A couple more questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEasley View Post
You've all been very generous with suggestions and they have been greatly appreciated.

We are strongly leaning toward something along the lines of this:
Used 2005 Cruisers 405, Sarasota, Fl - 34236 - BoatTrader.com
We're fond of the single level, open design for the salon, galley, and dining plus there seems to be a lot packed into a 40' boat. So far, we have found very few negative comments about the Cruisers 405 line.
  • If we decide to go through with the purchase of a boat, what kind of recurring expenses can we expect?
    • We're (uninformed) speculating that an annual haul out and bottom paint will be needed and will run about $2000 for a boat this size. Does it need to be done annually if the hull is brushed and scraped regularly? (we both scuba dive so can do this ourselves)
    • Oil changes every... 100 hours?
    • Oil filter changes every... how often?
    • What's the normal cost for an oil change and filter change?
    • How often does a generator need service and is it easy for a fairly mechanically-inclined person to himself or should a mechanic service it?
    • We intend to set up an automatic deposit savings account to set aside money for an eventual engine overhaul or something
    • What other expenses should we plan for?
  • Many of the marinas seem to specify no living aboard. Let's assume we find a reasonably priced slip in a non-live aboard marina. If we go down to the boat for the weekend once or twice a month and stay on board while there, is that considered normal and acceptable or would it violate the "no living aboard" clause?

Thanks for any information you can give us.
Nice! Not my cup of tea. Had you considered feeding those engines?
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Old 20-05-2016, 13:36   #10
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Re: A couple more questions

After long cruises with family and friends, prefer a boat that has separate cabins, including salon; multi levels, and a lot of nooks and such. Helps keep down noise, gives privacy, and lets one set the relative temperature to the different cabins. We wound up enclosing the galley and thus gaining valuable wall real estate for various cooking items. Then we enclosed the salon so folks could do whatever without disturbing others. Worked well. Also put up lead sheets before installing teak veneer walls to keep noise down. A sliding door was put in between the salon area and the forward cabins. That really helped isolate noisy teenagers from everyone else. Open plan is great for weekenders but if you travel long distances with several people, individual spaces really are appreciated, especially by the cook.
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Old 20-05-2016, 14:56   #11
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Re: A couple more questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
  • What other expenses should we plan for?,
  • Sails every 10 years, SS rigging every 15 years, batteries every 5-7 years, lines etc every 5 years, moorage, insurance. Electronics every 5 years maybe, propane for cooking. On a used boat I would have the fuel tanks cleaned and fuel "polished". Things come up, you need to learn to maintain them yourself.

Don't think the sails will be a major expense. Or the rigging.
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Old 20-05-2016, 15:46   #12
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Re: A couple more questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnEasley View Post
Thanks, ranger. Really good information. That helps a lot.
Meant to offer more, but had limited time...

Issue: gas vs. diesel. Read all you like about that; the short version is that diesel comes with larger upfront costs but gets more cost effective the more often you expect to move the boat. Wouldn't say either is by definition better, but it's useful to match your engines to your expected usage pattern.

Issue: Engine maintenance, expanded. Let's say you choose diesel and your mechanical survey (diesel expert, on that brand) gives your candidate a clean bill of health. Often that means compression is within spec on all cylinders, and the injectors are all good. Your FIRST bill could be all about working off his punch list, if any, AND setting yourself a going-in baseline for future timetables.

That first service then might include aftercooler service (take 'em off, take 'em apart, service like a radiator), AirSep service, top end work like a valve job, new serpentine belts, maybe some new hoses, oil and oil filter changes, the beginning of an oil sample regimen, new antifreeze after draining and purging, new coolant filters, fuel filter service (both primary and secondary), maybe heat exchanger service (take off and "boil" like a radiator), new water pump impellers....

And around here, our certified (by the engine maker) diesel techs charge $98/hour. Parts and labor on that first service therefore might be in the area of $3-4K each engine AND well worth it (assuming decent techs) to get you off on the right foot.

After that, periodic maintenance is easier, and simply a matter of following the maker's list of when to do what.

You can do much of that yourself, if not on day 1, eventually. Almost none of that is rocket science. Some might be more difficult depending on your access to various bits and pieces.

I used diesel as an example, but the start-up regimen for gas engines would be similar: bite the bullet, get everything right, up front, then keep it that way.

-Chris
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Old 20-05-2016, 15:57   #13
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Re: A couple more questions

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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
There are a couple 42' Cruisers boats in our marina, older than the 405s, I think. The owners seem comfortable with 'em...

The only thing I've pondered about theirs is that they both have V-drives. Hta allows the engines to be set further aft -- which in turn frees up some interior space. OTOH, it makes service a bit more difficult, because access is reduced. V-drives have a decent enough reputation for reliability, though, so I mention this only for your thoughts about doing your own maintenance.

I hadn't checked out your link before commenting about our local Cruisers boats... so can't tell if any of that about the V-drives might apply, after looking at your candidate.

I would encourage you to get on boats, physically, not just on Yachtworld, so you can evaluate things like visibility. A few other boat neighbors have aft-cabin or sedan bridge models, and they comment often about not being able to see where they're docking. My immediate neighbor is almost a train wreck when it comes to docking, partly because he can't see both aft corners of his boat, can't see the slip clearly, etc.

Not a recommendation, but you might find it useful to get on a sportfish or convertible, too, to see how different layouts can affect docking. In ours, for instance, the helm on the flying bridge is aft, so I can see both rear corners easily while backing into a slip. Boats with forward helms, and often with either larger/extended flying bridges or enclosed party decks above an aft cab will give you great views forward and more space up there for entertaining... at the expense of that aft-ward visibility.

That's just a single example, but the bottom line is that actually getting on a lot of boats, comparing those to the features you have in your minds' eyes, thinking about how you'd actually cook a meal, or entertain two guests (or 4, or 6 or whatever) how you'd shower, how you would share docking activities, etc.... will go along way toward matching your candidates to your requirements.

-Chris
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Old 20-05-2016, 19:38   #14
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Re: A couple more questions

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If you dress neatly, are polite, and keep a fairly low profile I have found that the "discretion of the harbor master" will cover you. They want customers like that. I think that will be true on the East Coast as well.
====

In addition to *your* appearance, it's also important to keep the boat in Bristol condition, i.e., bottom and top sides clean, no clutter on deck, sail covers and other canvas in good condition, wood trim in good shape, etc.
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Old 20-05-2016, 20:00   #15
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Re: A couple more questions

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Originally Posted by JohnEasley View Post
You've all been very generous with suggestions and they have been greatly appreciated.

If we decide to go through with the purchase of a boat, what kind of recurring expenses can we expect?

Thanks for any information you can give us.
===

You need to divide the costs into two categories, fixed and variable. The variable costs of course are those based on usage. Fixed costs include things like insurance, dockage, depreciation/amortization, annual haul-outs, etc. Variable costs include fuel, maintenance, etc.

Fuel can add up depending on how much (and how fast) you run the boat but in my experience the biggest costs are fixed. That can change if you use the boat a lot but you will probably still find things like dockage and insurance taking a big piece of the budget. You also need to plan for the occasional unexpected maintenance item on things like engines, generator, props and shafts. They can hit you when you least expect and run to many thousands of dollars.
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