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Old 26-09-2011, 06:43   #16
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
you pay peanuts,you get monkeys.........
It's only called "advice" when it involves me sending a bill (and no guarantees that even then it will be good)

Otherwise it is just talking things through / collecting ideas and experiances of others (and 90%+ of the time providing less information than would be needed for actual advice )...........before making your own decisions (often about making the best of less than ideal )..........real life and internet much the same.........

Of course some want (need?) to be spoonfed and complain when life is not like that after the age of 2 ..........real life and internet much the same.........
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Old 26-09-2011, 06:45   #17
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
always offer advice while having no knowledge?
...
Well, I'm not an expert on that, but let me offer some advice about forum psychology anyway. Oh, never mind...
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Old 26-09-2011, 06:45   #18
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE CAN BE A DANGEROUS THING!
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Old 26-09-2011, 06:49   #19
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Does that make you a monkey?
nah,definitely a cockpit gorilla,when not on the helm........
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Old 26-09-2011, 06:52   #20
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
always offer advice while having no knowledge?
...
Well, I'm not an expert on that, but let me offer some advice about forum psychology anyway. Oh, never mind...
no! no!, please do, this could be interesting........
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Old 26-09-2011, 07:12   #21
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by Loquat View Post
Its the Dunning-Kruger effect. Dimwits think they know everything ...
It is one of the essential features of incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent.

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
by Justin Kruger and David Dunning (Cornell University)

Here ➥
http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~dun...andunaware.pdf


”People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4
studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities ...”

Their conclusions can be summarized this way:

1. Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill,

2. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others,

3. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy,

4. If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.
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Old 26-09-2011, 07:12   #22
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by sarafina View Post
Or the people giving the advice don't listen to all the information given and base their advice on an incomplete grasp of the challenge. . .
Change "listen" to "listen/read & comprehend" and add JohnA's first sentence and you get the real situation.
- - A good example is this thread itself. The OP, IMHO, was talking about his professional experiences with customers who get "advice" mainly from others they meet in person. And this thread takes off into a discussion of Internet Forum advice. Although I like the monkey references . . .
- - The problem mentioned by the OP is so prevalent in the boat repair/parts business that the miniscule number of folks getting their "advice" from a forum is not a significant problem.
- - And the problem mentioned by the OP predates the existence of internet forums. I have even heard some really silly stuff come out of the mouths of "experts" during boating seminars, etc.
- - One of the best comebacks to such "sure cures" for something or other in the marine business, is to get the customer to realize that if what they heard really worked, everybody would already be doing/using "it." And since few, if any, are actually doing/using "it" - it is a good bet "it" really doesn't do what you heard.
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Old 26-09-2011, 07:21   #23
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Change "listen" to "listen/read & comprehend" and add JohnA's first sentence and you get the real situation.
- - A good example is this thread itself.
Also a good example of a 'not very explicit OP' considering most people did not realize he was discussing advice from a professional, since he never stated where the advice came from.
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Old 26-09-2011, 07:34   #24
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
It is one of the essential features of incompetence that the person so afflicted is incapable of knowing that he is incompetent.

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
by Justin Kruger and David Dunning (Cornell University)

Here ➥
http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~dun...andunaware.pdf


”People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4
studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities ...”

Their conclusions can be summarized this way:

1. Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill,

2. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others,

3. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy,

4. If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.

Can you imagine working for a company that only has a little more than 635 employees, but, has the following employee statistics..
29 have been accused of spouse abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
9 have been accused of writing bad cheques
17 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year
Collectively, this year alone, they have cost the British tax payer £92,993,748 in expenses!
Which organisation is this?
The House of Commons...

sounds like you are talking about the british government there gord........
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Old 26-09-2011, 07:56   #25
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by osirissail View Post
Change "listen" to "listen/read & comprehend" and add JohnA's first sentence and you get the real situation.
- - A good example is this thread itself. The OP, IMHO, was talking about his professional experiences with customers who get "advice" mainly from others they meet in person. And this thread takes off into a discussion of Internet Forum advice. Although I like the monkey references . . .
- - The problem mentioned by the OP is so prevalent in the boat repair/parts business that the miniscule number of folks getting their "advice" from a forum is not a significant problem.
- - And the problem mentioned by the OP predates the existence of internet forums. I have even heard some really silly stuff come out of the mouths of "experts" during boating seminars, etc.
- - One of the best comebacks to such "sure cures" for something or other in the marine business, is to get the customer to realize that if what they heard really worked, everybody would already be doing/using "it." And since few, if any, are actually doing/using "it" - it is a good bet "it" really doesn't do what you heard.
The OP is as guilty as the 'customers' he refers to by asking for advice/opinions on this forum. That is just the same kind of thing that a boat owner does to fellow boaters, dock walkers AND marine professionals. Unfortunately, most boat owners have learned that marine professional often aren't very professional. The advice we get from a one diesel mechanic is often completely dissed by the next one. Both told to us with great confidence. So sure, customers are a real pain in the ass for businesses and likewise so are 'professionals' for the people paying their bills and not knowing what they are getting in return.

I'm not an incompetent consumer -- really. I have listened to mechanics who I trust and are very experienced explain some specific need or approach to solve a problem. The argument made great sense to me. Then 6 months latter listen to the next professional explain why no one would do that to an an engine.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:05   #26
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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. . . I'm not an incompetent consumer -- really. I have listened to mechanics who I trust and are very experienced explain some specific need or approach to solve a problem. The argument made great sense to me. Then 6 months latter listen to the next professional explain why no one would do that to an an engine.
A very good point - things change, marine boat systems are always changing and sometimes what worked well in the past does not work very well now or in the future. For instance, recently a thread here on CF contained a recommendation to "take out the spark plugs . . ." on a private recreational boat's marine engine. Maybe a few decades ago that was good advice, but certainly not with today's modern diesel engines.
- - So some advice, although relevant in the past is not so relevant today or tomorrow. I am of the opinion that a large dose of "common sense" is helpful to filter out the silly from the serious advice one gets.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:08   #27
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
Can you imagine working for a company that only has a little more than 635 employees, but, has the following employee statistics..
It’s funny how these myths get perpetuated through repetition; but then, why should facts get in the way of our prejudices and misconceptions?
snopes.com: Congress Wrongdoings
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:18   #28
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Re: Why do people, who have no experience

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Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Their conclusions can be summarized this way:

1. Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill,

2. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others,

3. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy,

4. If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.
The truly incompetent may find ways to fail regardless of an enlightenment that may occur about their situation. A real life example:

A one point it was my misfortune to develop computer systems for a large company, 30,000ish employees. I was quite good at it and had devised systems that had made significant profits for the company. In return I was given a large R&D budget and a lot of free reign. Within my organizational group was someone at the other end of things. He had a widespread reputation for incompetence and had nurtured this over a long period of time. He was aware of having reached a wall although at the time he may not have understood why. Conversely he was aware that my work had garnered attention although, again, he may not have understood why.

He took a rather interesting path to solve the problem. He wrote a paper about one of my more promising avenues of effort and sent it directly to the CEO, with his name on it. Despite the fact there was 30,000 employees in the company there was a relatively small group of people involved in the specific area of work that I was doing and this is where his flash of insight fell short. The CEO handed the paper to my VP who handed it to my Director who then went, "Huh?".

As a direct result of some of the admittedly loud and strident conversation I had with him when I found out about his efforts, I was assigned to mentor him which was a task worthy of Sisyphus. The sensible thing to do would have been fire him but how incompetence becomes systematic is a subject for another conversation.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:22   #29
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

I hate to do it to you GordMay But that is an excellent example of what I talked about in post #22
- - Atoll is British and his tag line at the end was "Which organisation is this? The House of Commons..."

His spelling of "organisation" should also have alerted you . . . Although his quoted of evils does seem to be lifted from the list in Snopes . . . and pasted onto the British as Snopes mentioned.
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:28   #30
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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I hate to do it to you GordMay But that is an excellent example of what I talked about in post #22 . . .
As Snopes notes, that message was first circulated in 1999, in reference to the US Congress. Later versions were changed to represent Member of Parliament (alternatively from the UK, Canada, India, and various professional sports leagues).
It remains a myth, to whomsoever it purports to refer.
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