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Old 17-10-2011, 04:29   #136
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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You guys are way too funny.

Do you think that CF is the only place to meet "experts?"

10 years ago there were other places, as there are other places today.

And, yes, 10 years ago, like I said in my original post, I was convinced the advice I got on a similar forum/group was genuine. It was not!

I hope that some of the virgins reading this thread will learn something from what I have said...but be careful virgins because I could be the person misinforming!

Bill

One of the most important things to learn about sailing is that ill-informed people will give you very bad advice with the greatest of confidence. Someone recently told me that i really should put a 30 hp engine in my boat, which came with a 13. Until that 13 went belly up it moved the boat at near hull speed if not against a current. Could a 30 really give me THAT much more power? He said that in a storm he was 'glad he had it.'

In fact, he didn't know whether having a 30 rather than a 20 ran his boat better. i put in a 21 and clearly it has power to spare.

This man had never been on my boat and no idea of the capacity of my engine compartment, nor how expanding that compartment would affect my living space (basically it would have blocked the galley, a slight inconvenience.

Since my 13 pushed me through a narrow bridge in extremely turbulent waters and 20 k minds against a 3 knot current, I concluded that I did not really need to leap from 13 t0 30 hp.

But if I hadn't had that experience ...
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Old 17-10-2011, 05:36   #137
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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I am crushed and dismayed...first Chief puts up a post asking about incompetent advice and I am sure he is referring either to me or possibly Don Lucas and then someone puts up a list of all the crimes on my rap sheet Thankfully Gord came to the defense debunking it all as a myth referring to Congress, whew! Congress has got me off the hook again.

Todd

I must have missed this. Since I may offer an opinion, but rarely any advise, if I did I must have been feeling "off"".

If so I'm sorry!
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Old 17-10-2011, 07:02   #138
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

Once again, for those of you that have not read this thread completely, the people I am referring to are not on this board.....they are the ones on the docks.....the self appointed 'xperts.
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Old 17-10-2011, 07:27   #139
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

Maybe I need to spend more time at the docks as I am missing too much knowledge! Afterall those there apprear to be real good at staying in their slip; meanwhile I always seem to getting onto the boat and going somewhere else for the weekend to hide.

Bet I'm way behind on doing something maintenance/repair needed on the boat. Wonder if I have a dock walker party on my boat I could get some advice? Might not be many takers because would need to come out to my mooring to inspect my boat (and it's a Hunter which would probably scare many).

Would I get better expert advice if I had wine at the party instead of beer?

PS - and I'm joking
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Old 17-10-2011, 07:47   #140
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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Until that 13 went belly up it moved the boat at near hull speed if not against a current.
I see comments like this quite often. If you have enough power to achieve hull speed a current won't make any difference. Current has no effect on your speed through the water, only on your speed over ground. Hull speed is speed through the water.

If you have a motor that moves your boat at an acceptable speed in calm conditions but can't maintain headway against a headwind and a chop more horsepower can help. Adding horsepower to increase speed through the water beyond hull speed will yield very small and diminishing speed increments for each increment of power.

Fabbian
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Old 17-10-2011, 07:53   #141
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

Same tyhing as fflying against the wind and with the wind....

(I smell an argument (guns/anchors/politics type) a'brewin here!!!!
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Old 17-10-2011, 08:01   #142
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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I see comments like this quite often. If you have enough power to achieve hull speed a current won't make any difference. Current has no effect on your speed through the water, only on your speed over ground. Hull speed is speed through the water.

If you have a motor that moves your boat at an acceptable speed in calm conditions but can't maintain headway against a headwind and a chop more horsepower can help. Adding horsepower to increase speed through the water beyond hull speed will yield very small and diminishing speed increments for each increment of power.

Fabbian


OK, back up the ponies.

I did not say I was moving at hull speed under those circumstances. I did have enough power to move under the narrow bridge safely in spite of the very rough water, relatively strong winds and a strong current.

Speed over ground does matter in very rough water moving under a bridge. I would not want to have to worry about getting stuck under that bridge under those conditions.

In other words, we're saying the same thing ... but the law of diminishing returns also applies. It's a sailboat. It's not going to plane. If 13 could keep me safe in fairly bad conditions, 21 will probably be better (13 is pretty small) but there's NO guarantee that going to 30 will make an appreciable improvement.
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Old 17-10-2011, 08:15   #143
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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OK, back up the ponies.

I did not say I was moving at hull speed under those circumstances. I did have enough power to move under the narrow bridge safely in spite of the very rough water, relatively strong winds and a strong current.

Speed over ground does matter in very rough water moving under a bridge. I would not want to have to worry about getting stuck under that bridge under those conditions.

In other words, we're saying the same thing ... but the law of diminishing returns also applies. It's a sailboat. It's not going to plane. If 13 could keep me safe in fairly bad conditions, 21 will probably be better (13 is pretty small) but there's NO guarantee that going to 30 will make an appreciable improvement.
Going under a bridge I would guess the waves were no more than a meter or so, though the current could be very fast. This doesn't equate to big waves on even a moderate offshore blow, even though the current may be no more than that you saw going under the bridge. Big difference though is the length of time that you may have to motor against it, clearing a lee shore perhaps, or just holding position when you dare not run. For me HP counts just as much as an important safety feature as a good anchor.
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Old 17-10-2011, 08:23   #144
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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Going under a bridge I would guess the waves were no more than a meter or so, though the current could be very fast. This doesn't equate to big waves on even a moderate offshore blow, even though the current may be no more than that you saw going under the bridge. Big difference though is the length of time that you may have to motor against it, clearing a lee shore perhaps, or just holding position when you dare not run. For me HP counts just as much as an important safety feature as a good anchor.

Narrow bridge, with the water VERY rough. Waves were coming to the hind quarter but the wind had shifted to the front quarter. It was like motoring through a giant front-loading washing machine. My boat has a relatively high freeboard and we were wet. There was the wind as well on that high freeboard and the current, which was on the nose, and we had three strong forces from three different directions.

There was no lee shore involved.

You're saying what I'm saying. Sometimes that engine is extremely important.

My point was that the man who assured me that I "had" to have 30 hp was certain that it helped his boat, which is close to mine in displacement, but he had no evidence to back it up. He couldn't give me examples like "With my 30, at 3000 RPM I move at 6 knots, but boost it up to 3600 and I have 7 knots. With the old (size) engine I got such-and-so."

No one else encouraged me to get the 30 HP, and in my situation, with the 13 adequate even in some difficult waters (not a major storm), 21 is a substantial improvement -- and could actually be fit into the boat. The 30 not only would have cost more but would have required extensive work to make it fit. Afterwards, the boat would have been very hard to live on.

He couldn't back it up, but he was certain that bigger was always better. No one knowledgeable, including Mastry Engine, recommended the 30 for my boat.

I believe this man is an example of bad advice given with great confidence on the dock (not here), as we have been discussing.
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Old 17-10-2011, 08:28   #145
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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Narrow bridge, with the water VERY rough. Waves were coming to the hind quarter but the wind had shifted to the front quarter. It was like motoring through a giant front-loading washing machine. My boat has a relatively high freeboard and we were wet. There was the wind as well on that high freeboard and the current, which was on the nose, and we had three strong forces from three different directions.

There was no lee shore involved.

You're saying what I'm saying. Sometimes that engine is extremely important.

My point was that the man who assured me that I "had" to have 30 hp was certain that it helped his boat, which is close to mine in displacement, but he had no evidence to back it up. He couldn't give me examples like "With my 30, at 3000 RPM I move at 6 knots, but boost it up to 3600 and I have 7 knots. With the old (size) engine I got such-and-so."

No one else encouraged me to get the 30 HP, and in my situation, with the 13 adequate even in some difficult waters (not a major storm), 21 is a substantial improvement -- and could actually be fit into the boat. The 30 not only would have cost more but would have required extensive work to make it fit. Afterwards, the boat would have been very hard to live on.

He couldn't back it up, but he was certain that bigger was always better. No one knowledgeable, including Mastry Engine, recommended the 30 for my boat.

I believe this man is an example of bad advice given with great confidence on the dock (not here), as we have been discussing.
Mea culpa, perhaps I should have finished up saying sufficient HP is good, rather than just saying HP is good.
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Old 17-10-2011, 08:41   #146
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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Mea culpa, perhaps I should have finished up saying sufficient HP is good, rather than just saying HP is good.

I'm thrilled to have more than 13. 13 moved me close to hull speed in ideal conditions. I need to be able to handle a storm, get away from a lee shore, etc.
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Old 17-10-2011, 09:43   #147
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

The main problem with giving or receiving advice within a forum is that the devil is in the details. Far to often the answer is "it depends". It depends on the actual defination of the problem, far to often a answer is given before the problem has been correctly indentified, or understood.

Many of us incorrectly assume that we know the correct answer, when in actuality we are wrong.

Is there any amongst us who deliberatly gives bad advice? I hope not!
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Old 17-10-2011, 10:14   #148
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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The main problem with giving or receiving advice within a forum is that the devil is in the details. Far to often the answer is "it depends". It depends on the actual defination of the problem, far to often a answer is given before the problem has been correctly indentified, or understood.

Many of us incorrectly assume that we know the correct answer, when in actuality we are wrong.

Is there any amongst us who deliberatly gives bad advice? I hope not!

I do not believe I have ever *deliberately* been given bad advice, either here or dockside.

But I most definitely have been given bad advice with the best of intentions.
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Old 17-10-2011, 10:20   #149
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

The good thing about getting advise on forums, there's always someone to rebut, which gives the questioner the opportunity to think about the answers and then make an educated decision within their own capacity, knowing their own circumstance. Which may not have been fully represented to start with.
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Old 17-10-2011, 10:21   #150
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Re: Why Do Inexperienced People, with No Knowledge, Offer Advice ?

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there's always someone to rebut,
I rebut that!

Oops. Maybe you were right.

All humor aside, there are often times when I enter into a discussion only because I've seen bad advise being proffered, and I want to let the OP know that that there are other opinions out there.
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