When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery

We went around Point Conception on one of our trips South to North against prevailing winds. It was early evening, sun setting and winds dropping. We, along with a really big catamaran, were approaching from the Santa Barbara Channel in parallel. The cat was motoring straight into the NW wind, bash, bash, bash into the waves. We were motor-sailing, pointing pretty high but enjoying a nice steadiness that comes from the wind heeling the boat a bit and damping the wave action.

With the tack we were slowly gaining distance offshore to the west for about two hours or so and decided to tack back towards shore as we expected the winds to die and wanted to be fairly close to shore when that happened. During the tack, the cat came up on the VHF radio yelling "what's wrong? what's wrong?" I didn't even know he could still see us, but musta had his binos pointed right at us so I answered "we tacked, nothing wrong" and he went on "How big were the waves? did you turn because they were big? what do you see out there? big waves? are the waves even bigger?" and I just said "we just tacked, you know sailing? tacking?" and he said "oh."

Good story. I can hear it.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Why do people need to post a bio? I own, I know someone, I did etc. and run on and on. A little background it great.

It seems like an ego trip rather than helpful info..

I do it here because I don't post much so nobody knows me, the CF is a pretty harsh crowd and it's sometimes easier to just give the relative background than have to come back after some old salt has slammed you and your post saying "you have no experience" and have to say say "I do have experience"...just say some of it up front saves the old salty troll from slamming. Other kinds of trolls will continue the slams, of course.

[Grateful]

Who's a newby?

There are all kinds of newbys.

I sailed in small boats in all kinds of conditions since I was a little kid and agree with the posts above that there is nothing like time in a small boat. I raced dinghys and keel boats up to 40' in my college years and for a few years thereafter. I worked on a commercial fishing boat for a summer during college. I've run my 17' cuddy cabin sport fishing boat over the Westport and Columbia bars and around Neah Bay into the Pacific as far a Cape Flattery many times. I've chartered 46' cats in the Caribbean and Whitsunday Islands on four occasions. and helped deliver a 40' cat across the Atlantic from Les Sables to St Martin.

Nevertheless, now that my wife and I purchased our new to us 40' cat in St Martin this year and faced with the prospect of delivering it to the US, I am definitely a newby.

A respected member of this forum with a lot of local knowledge replied to my PM asking him about routing with the strong suggestion that May 23 was far too late into hurricane season to depart SXM for the US Gulf coast and that I should wait until fall. (Thank you again - I do appreciate the sound advice!) Other life issues really put pressure on us to make the delivery anyway.

Besides the lateness of the season, our boat was woefully under-equipped in the communications and navigation department and it was with some trepidation that I ignored that good advise from the forum member, arranged for crew and a good onshore weather router, and began the delivery of our boat 1,900 miles to the US.

As it turned out, the weather and weather routing was very good and the trip was largely uneventful. Would I attempt another trip deep into hurricane season with a green crew, ancient GPS with detailed charts for only 50% of the voyage, and nothing more than a DeLorme SPOT for long distance communications? HELL NO - but then newbys get lucky most of the time and this time so did we. Could things have gone badly? Most definitely.

I suppose the point I'm getting around to is that the difference between me and many of the newby's you're talking about here is that at least I know that I got away with something.

My wife and I are six months away from completing our refit and casting off for who knows where or for how long. Is this newby ready to "go for it?" I sure hope so but we do have a lot to learn. I know I'm a newby, but I hope that going forward, I'm a humble newby.

[barnakiel]

I am not in the 'we need luck' sailors band. I think, luck is like any other religion: some have it, some do not.

'We all need luck' to me sounds like some of us have not done their homework well; now they will blame it on 'luck'.

Do all you should best you can, then go. You may find accidents happen according to a pattern (normal distribution, bell curve) and, at times, in odd ways too (fat tails, black swans, you name it).

Do not take chances; improve yours.

b.

[Emmalina]

If someone has a shitty job in an office that they don't like "let them dream" is my motto

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am not in the 'we need luck' sailors band. I think, luck is like any other religion: some have it, some do not.

'We all need luck' to me sounds like some of us have not done their homework well; now they will blame it on 'luck'.

Do all you should best you can, then go. You may find accidents happen according to a pattern (normal distribution, bell curve) and, at times, in odd ways too (fat tails, black swans, you name it).

Do not take chances; improve yours.

b.

I worked for 6 years in transportation safety -- that included accident investigation with a lot of joint investigations between USDOT and NTSB (reliability and safety culture are things I do know a bit more than the average Joe or Jane does) and even with that background, I firmly believe that not only does one have to be prepared for one's undertaking, but one needs luck. Accidents come about when a series of failures and/or errors line up in, essentially, an unlucky (or shall we call it unfortunate?) way creating a clear path for the accident to take place. Sure, we can do what we can to make sure that opportunity for failure is slim, yes, and opportunity for error is also small. Even so, there is always opportunity for failures and errors (the average sailor is not like NASA going to sea) to happen and opportunity for all the failures to line up into an unfortunate (ahem unlucky) opportunity for an accident to happen.

My husband, with a background in military aviation in the field of aircraft survivability, and I both agree -- you need luck. Sure, that luck is out of your hands, but that doesn't mean that you don't need as much as you can get. He always says "the Right Stuff doesn't exist" referring to the movie of that name. We read a lot of "I've got the right stuff" from a lot of members on CF. People who think their situation is different or special because they've got what they've decided is the right combination of ____ (fill in the blank) are prevalent here. There is as much danger in a culture of someone saying "years of experience = safety" as saying "having the right technology aboard = safety."

Safety isn't that simple. Ever.

And that is a reason NOT to discourage a newbie sailor from fulfilling their cruising dream. That newbie may be someone who brings amazing knowledge and resources into sailing that we all can appreciate when we see them. And perhaps THEY are incredibly lucky, too

[chall]

A find some of the cynicism of this thread a little sad.

Presumably none of us were born experienced sailors, so at some point by a process of conception( dare I say a dream?), education, experience building, persistence and perhaps by way of a mistake or two we have all arrived where we are.

Is just offering encouragement with genuine, honest advice that hard of a balance?

Atoll started a fantastic thread that makes it clear what became of many of us 'wannabees'. A quick read of that thread and you will see many of us did pursue our dreams and heeded the advice generously given and are extremely thankful for it. To those of you who have exceptionally more experience than us and have taken the time either online or otherwise to help guide us we remain forever grateful. Thank you.

[Prairie Chicken]

Schooner Chandlery, I agree fully with your position. Prepare as best you can, but you've got to have some luck on your side too.

That said, there are some people who just shouldn't be in a risk-filled environment. Unfortunately, not all of them recognize this fact.

[Maine Sail]

We had our own situation right here on CF not too long ago with LiveaboardL AKA Louis Jordan. Just reading the threads and responses lends some insight into what the linked article is suggesting with the Dunning-Kruger effect. All in all Louis asked some good questions and was given some very good advice here, but did he listen to any of it.....????

Some of Louis' threads on Cruisers Forum certainly lend a bit of insight into the how or why things can fail...

Preserve Fish Meat In Hot Climates

How Far Out To Sea Is Safe In A Hurricane?

Raise Battery Voltage For The Inverter?

Fire if improper electrical connection?


This was one of my favorite quotes:

Quoted From Cruisers Forum:

Originally Posted by liveaboardL

I was rewiring my boat after smoking a little herb and now whenever I run my bilge pump, the bilge water empties into the cockpit while, at the same time, pushing some of the bilge water out of the boat like it should.

When the bilge pump is turned off, the water slowly drains from the cockpit back into the bilge.

Now get this, my other bilge pump sucks water from my cockpit and empties it into the bilge, but on only one side. I think the other side is clogged or something.

So while one bilge pump sucks, the other one blows. Damn I've been watching too much FAP.

Suggestions?

Bilge Pump Emptying into the Cockpit

What's the Best Fishing Tackle & Stretegies for Cruising East Coast US?

30 amp ext cord to 50 amp outlet jerry-rig

Shocked from Touching A/C Distribution Panel

Chainplate's isn't mounted right. Is it still OK to sail?

Current, vs wind, vs boat direction?

Easy, free Fish & other food while living aboard

Drinking Rainwater with Tiny Bugs Swimming in It


Alberg 35: heave to, drying out, reefing...

Worst, Most Common Boating Mistakes Caused from Ignorance


This un-edited video interview left me with more questions than answers....... ???

Video Interview:

Interview With Louis Jordan After Rescue




.

[chall]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

We had our own situation right here on CF not too long ago with LiveaboardL AKA Louis Jordan. Just reading the threads and responses lends some insight into what the linked article is suggesting with the Dunning-Kruger effect. All in all Louis asked some good questions and was given some very good advice here, but did he listen to any of it.....????

Some of Louis' threads on Cruisers Forum certainly lend a bit of insight into the how or why things can fail...

True. I can't argue with your example.

However a couple of years ago as a 'newbie dreamer' who had just completed RYA Dayskipper I helped an experienced 'old salt' delivery skipper bring a boat down the coast.

When the other crew member and myself began rigging the jacklines, the skipper scolded us and told us that harnesses were unnecessary politically correct bulldust. At that point perhaps I should have gotten concerned, but this guy had done a transpac and was an experienced sailor.

The other crew member and myself ended up doing all the night watches, while the skipper proceeded to get stoned and drunk every night below.

Might I suggest that experience and old saltiness is sometimes no cure for stupid either? Maybe some people just get lucky.... a lot.

[MarkJ]

Its only sailing. Its not being a doctor curing children with cancer.
the Vikings could do it. Even the Americans won the Americas cup once or twice with Americans on board...

Yes there will be idiots like Louis. But most people are fine. What I hate most is people telling others "i did it but you can't. I am better than you because I did it last year when Men were Men but this year you are all fools."


Mark

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by chall

True. I can't argue with your example.

However a couple of years ago as a 'newbie dreamer' who had just completed RYA Dayskipper I helped an experienced 'old salt' delivery skipper bring a boat down the coast.

When the other crew member and myself began rigging the jacklines, the skipper scolded us and told us that harnesses were unnecessary politically correct bulldust. At that point perhaps I should have gotten concerned, but this guy had done a transpac and was an experienced sailor.

The other crew member and myself ended up doing all the night watches, while the skipper proceeded to get stoned and drunk every night below.

Might I suggest that experience and old saltiness is sometimes no cure for stupid either? Maybe some people just get lucky.... a lot.

Very, very true and my post was not about newbies nor seasoned salts just more about watching these debacles and how and why folks get themselves into these situations.

A few years ago I actually fired a client who had all the answers but knew none of the questions.

He was a "racer" and knew how to sail better than Dennis Conner, if you just asked him, he'd tell you.

Problem was he'd just bought his first cruising boat and did not even know how to anchor. In his first week he hit bottom (solid granite) twice. Dragged his anchor so the boat wound up on the rocks. Refused to listen to "system" advice he was given and killed his batteries which cost him a $400.00 tow on top of a 2k to get off the rocks..

I worked with a this guy for weeks on an electronics package and detailed & designed a great set up for his boat & described use.

Throughout the whole process he was literally fixated and kept insisting that he had "a hole to fill" over his companionway slider and wanted to put the autopilot control head in that hole.

I very politely, perhaps 8 different times, explained to him in great detail why that was a poor idea & location, in Maine, with thousands of lobster pots to dodge, which meant ON and OFF AP a LOT..

He also was not interested in buying an AP remote control. His wheel was about 6' in diameter (racer / cruiser), and extremely tough to get around, so getting around it to turn on or off the AP would have been a nightmare unless you only sailed off shore and he was 99.999% pure Maine coastal..

Thankfully he went with the "lowest bidder". He got his AP control head installed just where he wanted it.

I later heard that he tangled a lobster pot Down East while on AP and destroyed his prop, shaft and gear box.... D'oh!!! Cha-ching $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$....

After he got that fixed he apparently proceeded to fill his diesel tank with water and tried to blame me for installing "faulty" fuel filters in the spring. A guy from the fuel dock told me what had happened before he even called. This after he tried to blame the boat yard for filling his fuel tank with water when they never even touched the boat. When he called me it was bye, bye you're fired as a client... The whole even was surreal....

I'm convinced you can't help bone headed. He sold the boat shortly there after because his wife refused to set foot on it with him. All this has nothing to do with him being an experienced sailor or not, he was very experienced at "sailing" but not with systems, anchoring, diesels or electronics. It has everything to do with not listening to the answers of the questions he asked and being stubborn & belligerent....

[sailorboy1]

dam dinghy sailors

[hoppy]

Life's too short to take the boring old fuddy duddy approach to everything. People with a dream should not be discouraged perhaps unless it would be considered foolhardy regardless of who was trying it.

I've been following on YouTube a young Aussie couple doing a circumnavigation. From what I understand the guy broke his back in an accident and it motivated him for this adventure. He went to Italy and bought a 43 foot Beneteau even though he had no sailing experience. He got help from people there to learn how to sail his boat. Set off for Greece cruising solo at times. There he met an Aussie girl and she joined him. The sailed to Gibraltar quite late (December I think), Canaries, Cape Verde and finally the Caribbean. Last I heard they were hauled out in Grenada and went to Aus to earn money during the Hurricane season.

Telling someone like this to sail a dinghy first will certainly make sail trim easier to understand at first, but that's only a small part of cruising and can still be picked up on a cruising boat.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[SimonV]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I agree totally! The other forum I am on, Sailnet, uses it and it really equalises the ratbags out of their bs. An intelligent comment will get 5 "Likes" and a moronic will get 1...from the idiots idiot mate.

CF should bring it in here. It really is a great advantage.

Oh, so would that make me the idiot mate? I do agree likes do work.