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Old 28-07-2015, 09:43   #121
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by jwcolby54 View Post
And that clearly demonstrates the schism between money and not money.

The rest of the world searches the "for sale" ads.
I have less than $20k into my boat all told and it was my only home for over a year. The difference between me and the clueless beginners is I knew what I was looking for and knew that I had the skills to keep her going.

I have a steady job now, but when I bought the boat I was scratching out a living doing deliveries, teaching survival and jockeying party boats- money I am not.

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Old 28-07-2015, 10:03   #122
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Some of the posters here are under the delusion that some clueless types are capable of learning on the fly, that is, they will be able to figure it out as they go. Sorry to clue you in, but there are actually some out there who cannot do that. Some can rise to the occasion in a pinch, some just get lucky, some don't come back, or, if they do come back, do so with their tails firmly between their legs.

Personally I think most can do it but it is borderline criminal to encourage some people to jump off a cliff thinking that they will invent a way to take off their pants and use them as a parachute on the way down. Especially when most of those do not do their little experiments alone where they can only hurt themselves. Luckily, the sea doesn't take all it could, so most just limp back in and decide to take up something they can handle better.

I am living proof that a know-nothing can learn how to take a boat across an ocean but I went about it in my own way of biting off bits of the apple at a time rather than the whole apple at once. I am still humbled by the sea and how much more powerful it is. But we can all get lucky, and a lot of sailing is really not that hard. But it is worthy of respect if you really want the odds stacked in your favor.

And, in my experience (without a formal poll to give real numbers) a huge number of cruisers you meet in Mexico from the US did not grow up sailing. Many were on their first boat (like us).

But there is really no "right" answer to this. And that is what life is all about. Geez - does that sound philosophical or what??
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Old 28-07-2015, 10:06   #123
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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It might be an interesting survey, I bet the vast majority of real sailors on here have been sailing since childhood and certainly didn't learn how on a 40' beneteau, they learned on Albacores and lasers and sharks.
The exact type of sailing snob reply that chases away new people asking questions

What the hell is an Abacore, lazer, or shark and why would I need to have sailed on any of them? Do they really have anything to do with learning to cruise, I think not.

First boat I ever sailed was 36' and the smallest I've sailed is a 33' boat. But that's why I'm just a liar and idiot.
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Old 28-07-2015, 10:10   #124
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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The exact type of sailing snob reply that chases away new people asking questions

What the hell is an Abacore, lazer, or shark and why would I need to have sailed on any of them? Do they really have anything to do with learning to cruise, I think not.

First boat I ever sailed was 36' and the smallest I've sailed is a 33' boat. But that's why I'm just a liar and idiot.
I said most, not all.

If you think dinghy sailing doesn't provide useful skills for cruising sailors, yes I agree, you're an idiot.

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Old 28-07-2015, 10:19   #125
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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I said most, not all.

If you think dinghy sailing doesn't provide useful skills for cruising sailors, yes I agree, you're an idiot.

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Sure all sailing is useful, but if you think experience on a dinghy sailing boat is of much experience on a cruising boat then you are the real idiot. The actual how to sail part is by far the easiest part of the whole thing.
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Old 28-07-2015, 10:28   #126
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Sailing.....cruisers actually sail...ha ha ha....not the majority in Mexico.
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Old 28-07-2015, 10:31   #127
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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The exact type of sailing snob reply that chases away new people asking questions

What the hell is an Abacore, lazer, or shark and why would I need to have sailed on any of them? Do they really have anything to do with learning to cruise, I think not.

First boat I ever sailed was 36' and the smallest I've sailed is a 33' boat. But that's why I'm just a liar and idiot.
Sorry! I think you took his statement entirely out of context to come back with a snarky reply.
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Old 28-07-2015, 10:42   #128
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

We should encourage everyone to just go no matter how stupid the plan. If things go bad for them, we give them a tribute in a Darwin Awards thread and at the end of each year we run a poll to decide the years Darwin Award winner


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Old 28-07-2015, 10:42   #129
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Sure all sailing is useful, but if you think experience on a dinghy sailing boat is of much experience on a cruising boat then you are the real idiot. The actual how to sail part is by far the easiest part of the whole thing.
I've sailed from 12 foot boats to 190 ft brigs skippered up to 160' schooners, I've taken valuable lessons from all and apply them in may day to day cruising. If you're sailing is always easy- you're doing it wrong.

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Old 28-07-2015, 10:44   #130
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Hyperbole and name-calling aside, I agree with Sailorboy about the sailing part. It is important but not the part that is make it or break it for the most part. Navigation is far more important and dinghy sailing is not the best place to learn that. Not talking about who is the stand-on boat etc. that you may pick up on a race series. So many more important things than knowing the difference between the luff and the clew and how to trim a jib for best SOG.

If I could rearrange my life I would have liked to have grown up sailing in dinghies because it would have been fun. But I wouldn't list it a a requirement for cruising. Or going to boat shows either although I have done plenty of that.

The skills needed for cruising, in my book, are attitude and aptitude with just enough experience to make it work. A good attitude gives you the insight to understand how important preparation is. A good aptitude allows to actually do the preparation. Both get you through the difficult spots. Attitude alone gets you hard-aground on the reef, at night, in a big blow. Aptitude keeps you off the reef.
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Old 28-07-2015, 11:00   #131
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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what was that guys name??? SCOOBERT?
Hope you realize that scoobert is and has been out cruising a while now and is in fact a "just go" success story far as it goes. Neither CR or SN was able to discourage him so maybe a lot of forum advise is worth the cost ones pays to get it. It doesn't really matter if he is kind of crazy etc.

It takes 1 week to get ASA bareboat certified starting with zero experience. I would propose this is minimum to start cruising and after that it is OK to tell people to "just go" with reasonable caution.
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Old 28-07-2015, 11:03   #132
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When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

Sorry gents gonna disagree again.

Nav is nice, but knowing how to stay alive and safe trumps that. Having micro-cruised, a former open ocean kayaker and now sailing a 33'. I truly feel having had that small boat experience helps. Shooting an inlet tide vs. wind and waves in a kayak is great training when your 10k lb 33 only has 24 HP and needs to do the same thing.

Same can be said for big waves in open water. If I could handle 10-12 in a kayak, it is a cake walk in the 33.

This is not the only path, but those who do not have that experience need to acquire it BEFORE heading off. It is easily done by going out in increasingly foul weather for day sails.

Just one persons opinion.


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Old 28-07-2015, 11:15   #133
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Problem with "push button sailors" is that most (all) don't know what to do when the button does not work.
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Old 28-07-2015, 11:43   #134
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Some of the posters here are under the delusion that some clueless types are capable of learning on the fly, that is, they will be able to figure it out as they go. Sorry to clue you in, but there are actually some out there who cannot do that. Some can rise to the occasion in a pinch, some just get lucky, some don't come back, or, if they do come back, do so with their tails firmly between their legs.

Personally I think most can do it but it is borderline criminal to encourage some people to jump off a cliff thinking that they will invent a way to take off their pants and use them as a parachute on the way down. Especially when most of those do not do their little experiments alone where they can only hurt themselves. Luckily, the sea doesn't take all it could, so most just limp back in and decide to take up something they can handle better.

I am living proof that a know-nothing can learn how to take a boat across an ocean but I went about it in my own way of biting off bits of the apple at a time rather than the whole apple at once. I am still humbled by the sea and how much more powerful it is. But we can all get lucky, and a lot of sailing is really not that hard. But it is worthy of respect if you really want the odds stacked in your favor.

And, in my experience (without a formal poll to give real numbers) a huge number of cruisers you meet in Mexico from the US did not grow up sailing. Many were on their first boat (like us).

But there is really no "right" answer to this. And that is what life is all about. Geez - does that sound philosophical or what??
Good post!

I bolded a couple of lines above, that resonated with some thoughts I had earlier.

In another thread I started in the Health and Safety forum here, I wrote the following:

"This is not disrespect for the man, it is about respect for the sea."

That is how I see it. Well, actually my more general view is a little different (to cover both male and female sailors) :

"This is not disrespect for the sailor, it is about respect for the sea."

My point in case is in this thread I started today, because I think it has a few important lessons in it.

Lucky? Unlucky? Prepared? Unprepared?
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Old 28-07-2015, 11:44   #135
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Re: When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

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Hope you realize that scoobert is and has been out cruising a while now and is in fact a "just go" success story far as it goes. Neither CR or SN was able to discourage him so maybe a lot of forum advise is worth the cost ones pays to get it. It doesn't really matter if he is kind of crazy etc.

It takes 1 week to get ASA bareboat certified starting with zero experience. I would propose this is minimum to start cruising and after that it is OK to tell people to "just go" with reasonable caution.
I don't have ASA certification, I've seen it referenced here many times, but I've never bothered to research what its all about.

I agree with you guys that dinghy sailing is not essential, I do feel its very valuable for cruiser sailing. Same thing with tall ship sailing.

I'm thinking we might have different ideas about sailing, I agree, cruising can be achieved with out sailing (trawlers).

For some, cruising on a sailboat is very much about the sailing. Sailing is only easy if you don't push the envelope, sailing can be very challenging. On the week end I sailed my 35' boat up a 200-1200 ft wide river for 27 miles against a 20 knot wind and against a 1-2 knot current. I'm pretty sure if you guys were doing that kind of sailing you wouldn't talk about how easy sailing is. Instead, if the sailing presents a challenge, you fire up your motors.

Navigation's the same, you can know how to do it well, or you can get by using your electronics as a crutch.

My point has nothing to do with any of this though, my point was the beginners have a long road between asking a question on a forum and actually putting to sea, during which time some will learn, most won't but almost none will be exposed to life and death situations.

By the time you're actually out on the water you've done a fair bit of learning, its the nature of boat ownership. An answer on a forum doesn't magically put any body at risk, its just an early part of the research phase, fairly harmless.

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